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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5792
Location: United States
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 Posted: 06-Aug-2002 16:22 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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who says the don't know of a certain amount of build up. its a matter of moving rescources the right way, that no one person gets a full view. or let us not forget the ultimate factor of intelligence.... the unwillingness to admit that which is so obvious. like you kargian, most of the inner sphere see's WoB as incapable of mounting a war.
lets not forget the Comguards..... thou they used mostly stock piled machines, every last pilot was traineed to fight, from scratch. the comguards were a massive force, and defintly better the green troops.
as for warship crews, to my knowledge every warship [even the clans] is pretty much crewed by inexperienced crewmen. naval actions have been extremely limited for the last 300 years. so, a well trained WoB warship is easily going to be equal to most warship in the is or clans.
so, were you don't see capability and chock it off as Fanpro using BT Physics by plucking soldiers from there arss. i see very much the possability, that can be done with a non-to hard to believe story [well writen]
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Aug-2002 16:33 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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Maybe...but when the SL book stated clearly that the Sol star system was running out of raw material back before the Star League came about one has to wonder how the WoB is making anything at all.
I guess we will have to wait and see what they actually do tomorrow on the 7th when the info comes out...
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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The_Nice_Guy
Capellan Confederation
San-ben-bing
Joined: 19-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 10
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| Posted: 06-Aug-2002 16:34 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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Actually, I just realised something.
New Avalon, Dieron, and a few other worlds have populations in the billions as well. Dieron has 4 billion, IIRC.
Does it mean they can wage an interstellar war with personnel from these worlds alone?
Obviously, they can't. Equipment, supplies, and transport are all part of the picture as well.
While WoB has no problems with material, manpower is a bit of a problem. Only way for them to get enough troops is by re-education, and that sort of thing hardly goes unnoticed.
There exists the small chance that a number of people do want to join of their own accord, but volunteer armies in good times are never large.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8081
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Aug-2002 16:37 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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I guess we will have to wait and see what they actually do tomorrow on the 7th when the info comes out...
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Presuming that this whole thing has anything to do with Project Phoenix that is 
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Clutch
Capellan Confederation
San-ben-bing
Joined: 24-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 38
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| Posted: 06-Aug-2002 16:58 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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On 2002-08-06 16:10, Karagin wrote:
And all of this goes unnoticed by the Houses and ComStar? So how I don't think the intelliegence agences of each house and ROM would have missed a massive build up and a buying of weapons and supplies.
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That would depend where they were looking. The only folks that really seem to have focused on WoB is Comstar. But then again Comstar has one eye on WoB and one on the Clans.
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Terra may give them facotries but again, you seem to have forgotten when ComStar pulled out they left behind their own sleeper agents and other covert ops folks, PLUS the people of Terra seem to not be on the best of terms with ComStar or WoB...
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Well, lets not forget that Comstar didn't exactly "pull out" of Terra. They were chased out. Doubtless you're right and many of thier folks were cut off and went to ground, but even Comstar doesn't know how many of these guys have been found and turned, and how many are legit.
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Even with battle tested troops as is most of the actual WoB Milita, that is but a small part of the over all force and they can't be every were. The warships you pointed out...who is going to man them? Noivces leaders and Green crews...
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True, they can't be everywhere. But they can train the recruits hard, and lead from the front. Another thing is that these guys are Zealots, how do you defeat a force of men who are truely not afraid to die? Especially when they sell themselves at a 3 to one ratio. As far as the Warships, I'm not really sure what percentage of Comstars Black Water Navy defected to WoB. Anybody have any idea?
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But I guess if TPTB claim it can happen then I am sure they have the trees with mechs and men all planted and ready to be plucked...
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Well, you and I both know they won't come up with anything as lame as clones. Just don't limit your thinking to what has been previously written. Heaven knows the writers won't.
Clutch
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Aug-2002 20:58 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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On the last part Clutch, I can't agree based on all the future hints dropped seems like to many of the same plot lines again..
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5792
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Aug-2002 21:09 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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history is doomed to repeat itself.....
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2104
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| Posted: 06-Aug-2002 21:20 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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Quote:
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On 2002-08-06 05:46, Karagin wrote:
to pull of it's little war?
Anyone have any ideas or speculation on this?
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Who needs manpower when it they use NBC weapons?
Read the Project Phoenix page...specifically, the interruption by the WoB...they say they will"bring forth from the depths of hell the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse! To all those that have supported the heretic Focht and his little Viper General, we shall visit on them the full fury of pestilence and plague! We shall let loose War and rain down on the heads of the deceivers the full might of our justice! We shall release Death upon the Inner Sphere the likes that mankind has never seen. Our retribution will be swift and terrible!
When it is over we shall deliver mankind from the living hell that the blasphemers have brought upon mankind! We shall bring the peace of Blake to everyone everywhere! Prepare for your destruction… we are coming…"
To me, that indicates they took Ripley's words to heart...they decided to "take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."-Aliens
I'm betting that's what got the Wolves ticked too...reference "The Scouring of Tamar" on the Comstar INN site...
Ruger
[ This Message was edited by: Ruger on 2002-08-06 21:21 ]
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CommieM
Clan Nova Cat
Point Commander
Joined: 13-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 23
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Aug-2002 00:03 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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Well,
Many of the theories presented here are commendable and impressive. However, there is one other theory that, while the possibility is so remote, is one that bears noticing.
Since the Word of Blake took over Terra, that would grant them access to the technology and information that ROM has collected over the centuries before the schism and before the schism, their main focus was the Clans when they invaded.
What if, the Word of Blake, using resources from Terra, has secretly established their own Eugenics program. While perhaps not near as impressive as their Clan counter-parts, it is enough that they can spawn warrios for their ranks.
Something to think about.
CommieM Kotare
Oathmaster
Clan Smoke Jaguar
www.uts-gaming.com
www.smokejaguars.com
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Aug-2002 07:34 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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Genetically bred Fanatics.... Great.....
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Aug-2002 07:49 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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Roughly speaking they would have a bunch of 6 year olds running around who are nutcases IF they started the project up once they took back Terra...
Still it is an interesting idea none the less. Maybe a Stepford Children movie to go along with it? Or is that showing my age?
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Mechlord3130
Clan Nova Cat
Point Commander
Joined: 24-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 17
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| Posted: 07-Aug-2002 23:01 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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Everyone seems to be stuck on the "manpower" issue, and quite frankly, I don't think it is an issue at all.
Haven't these guys been in control of the HPG networks for centuries? By the description of these things, it appears that one would only need control of a few key outposts to be able to intercept communications for the entire IS.
Since the HPG network is the only way to relay communications for troop movements, plan logistics, and attack stratagies it would be unlikely that any sizable force would be able to engage the WOBies without them being well aware of it.
Now, if I were a religious fanatic bent on universal domination, and able to intercept, monitor, and/ or alter communications for the entire IS here's the way I'd do it:
1) Finances: First I am going to need significant capitol to build up my forces. I do this by monitoring communications of companies in free markets, looking for sudden influxes of cash, resources, etc. and use that info to hedge my bets through insider trading.
Of course, all investments are made through dummy investors, and I carefully monitor my windfalls, so that no one dummy investor make enough to draw attention to himself. Carefully done, in no time at all, I could certainly rack up the C-bills.
2) Raw materials: Using the capitol from my investments, I set up innocuos dummy companies that need raw materials that also happen to be needed for SOME battlemech components. Of course these materials are never actually used for said purpose, but are redirected to Terra, where they can used in the state-of-art production facilites left by the old Star League.
3)Manpower: Eugenics, disenfrachised youth, refuges from the Clan wars... All sounds good to me, I vote for a combination of all of them...
4) Battle tactics: No direct confrontations. Misdirection is the key. Intercept communications, alter them, etc. By putting military communications in such disarray, it would be difficult to mount an effective offensive, as troops, and supplies would be going in all different directions. The effect on any large scale assault would be devistating. Distress calls go unanswered, reenforcements never arrive, jumpships end up on the other side of space at one location, when they were suposed to be someplace else...
In my mind, its a wonder the WOBies didn't win!
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That which does not kill me will probably taste great well done, with a side of sharp chedder, and a fine red wine
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Major
Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 1611
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| Posted: 08-Aug-2002 05:57 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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Ok, I tried to post this yesterday, but my browser was messing with me. Some of this has been already said since yesterday.
First, they don't even need 1% of a 6 Billion population to field a really huge army, even though they can count on a lot more than that. A mech regiment is 120 MW plus a few hundred inf and techs. Call it 500, hell call it 5,000. What is 1% of 6 billion? I really sucked at math in college but I think that is 60 million people. I think WOB can find enough people for a lousy couple of hundred or so Comguard style divisions out of even less than 1%. Clue: 5,000 x 200 is one million.
Numbers are not at all a problem for the Word of Blake on Terra alone, not even counting recruits found on Gibson, all over Marik space, the Periphery, and the Inner Sphere in general. Their true bottleneck would be transport, moving a huge bunch of these fanatics from Terra to everywhere else.
And everybody seems to be forgetting one real important fact about Terra. The new improved Comstar ruled the place for about half a decade. The worshippers of Blake ruled it with absolute control for about 2 centuries and took it all back after a very brief lapse of ownership. I think it is obvious that there are plenty of Blake Believers among Terra's population.
Everybody, and I mean the canon fluff too, keeps saying Terra this and Terra that and acting as if all those 6 billion people on Terra aren't really there and have no opinion about Comstar and the Word of Blake. And this in spite of the fact that Comstar kept the planet sealed off from outsiders for around two centuries, during which time they no doubt had complete control of the newspapers, holovid, school systems, boy scouts, youth corps, etc on the planet.
2nd Training. Training to use a mech does not actually take years. Academy's take years because their graduates are expected to be officers at some point. But just learning to use a mech, call it a year tops. Same for infantry, tankers, etc. Maybe 2 years for spaceship crew since they need to know more technical stuff beyond "this is the safety, this is the trigger."
3rd Infrastructure. Read the TROs and list the names of factories on Terra and Gibson that make WOB mechs, it's as many factories as any House has if not more so. More production than any other single planet or even several planets. Terra was the central military factory location for the Terran Hegemony for security reasons and when Comstar took over, they repaired them all and then mothballed them against future need. They also rebuilt all the military academies, handy places to graduate say a thousand new officers a year with a 3 to 4 year startup to the first graduating class. Green, but dedicated and very numerous.
And you don't need an officer to lead a Level II unit of mechs or even inf, that's a sergeant's job. Most most Btech armies have non-coms in command of infantry units that in the US army would have a captain and a couple of LTs to assist him.
4th Supply and Resources.
They spent a couple of hundred years hoarding a huge stockpile of military vehicles and while preparing to take it all. What makes you think there aren't huge piles of supplies and raw materials parked on Terra and all over the solar system? Not to mention secretly shipping in who knows how much from the periphery for 200 years. Who says the old loony Comstar didn't mothball all those factories with a few decades worth of mech building materials right there on the premisis?
And 5th. What's up with the money? True believers don't need money! And mechs built with stuff gathered by True Believers don't cost money. And when sometimes they do need money, they can just print their own. A planet like Terra has plenty of homegrown consumer goods. And anybody who says a WOB C-bill is not the only allowed legal tender on Terra winds up shot or residing in a concentration camp. Money is also not a problem for the Word of Blake.
But all that aside, what is a problem for the Word of Blake is making a plot that can have them shattered, reformed, factionalised, returned to Terra, and then reaching out to grab it all only a decade after getting their home base back. But they can help solve this plot problem easily with a large populated very Blake worshipping planet out in the periphery.
Do you remember the Fate of the 295th Royal Battlemech Division? The old Explorer Corps that used to look for the Star League Army said they all died and their mechs rusted into junk didn't they? Because some oldtime Comstar guy said so? Believe that, do you?
[ This Message was edited by: Gunslinger Patch on 2002-08-08 06:00 ]
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Culverin
Draconis Combine
Gunsho
Joined: 15-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 97
Location: Canada
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| Posted: 15-Aug-2002 16:18 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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i gotta agree with mech lord.
terra holds lots and lots of ppl.
and using it as a recruiting tool will net them even more.
periphery is also good.
some "undisovere" planets could have a pretty bountiful population....
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Warner
Clan Nova Cat
Oathmaster
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 175
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| Posted: 17-Aug-2002 23:06 Post subject: RE: Ideas on where WoB is getting the manpower... |
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Quote:
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On 2002-08-06 05:46, Karagin wrote:
to pull of it's little war?
Anyone have any ideas or speculation on this?
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First let me say that I do not intend to try to alter anyone's ideas or change opinions.
What I want to address is everyone's impression on just what the Jihad is all about.
Let me address Karagin's Post first:
Question: Do the Wobbies have the forces necessary to take over the Inner Sphere in a full blown prosecution of a war?
Answer: No they do not.
That being said... from a strategic stand point.. Do the Wobbies truly need to attack and take all the worlds? The answer to exactly what the Wobbies did and how they did it is or was up on the ComStar site...
So let me offer you this up as a question...
With all the forces that the Wobbies do have, and all the weapons they have available to them... how can they launch a Jihad and bring the Inner Sphere down to its knees?
This is how the question should have been asked, I believe. And this is the best I can offer up to you all. What has been stated, what, how, when, why and where have been there all the time. The fact that somethings haven't been said is another thing. And those things can be used to tie it all together. Those will be revealed soon enough.
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As always, enjoy!
Warner Doles
"Who am I? I am the right hand of fiat, tormentor of souls, death incarnate, and the last living writer you will ever see. Randall sent me."
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