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Col. Dwight Chandra
Lewis' Executioners
C.O., Alpha Co.
Joined: 15-Aug-2002 00:00
Posts: 170
Location: United States
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 Posted: 16-Aug-2002 10:59 Post subject: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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I was hoping someone out there could help me out (conceptually) with something I have never been able to explain to myself or anyone else...
Why is it that we need to roll on # missle hit chart for guided missles? Right now, in "primative" 2002, we have missiles that can target a building, wait on the doorstep and knock on the door, then proceed down a hallway, make the second left into the family room, and blow-up the target sitting in the easy chair watching the NFL game on the tube. Why is it that even in 2750, at the height of the Star League, we need to roll dice to see if missiles can hit a 50 ton piece of hardware with a radiating energy source standing out in the middle of a battlefield?
Usually I can let this go for a while, but I just taught a nephew how to play the game, and it was one of the first questions he asked. I, once again, just sat there. Any ideas?
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Kraken
Federated Suns
Marshal
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Aug-2002 11:21 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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Remember the size of the missiles we're dealing with. They're only *semi-* guided if you look at it.
Think about it, for both SRMs and LRMs you get 100 missiles per ton. This means that each missile weighs 10 kg, or roughly 21.6 pounds (if I got the conversion correct). They're more like glorified rocket pods than true guided missiles. They have just enough guidance to them so that they can actually hit the broad side of a barn.
Not only that, it's game balance. If both you and your opponent hit every time, every round, from tremendous ranges with near-fatal damage that wasn't artillery, things would get a mite dumb unless you enjoy that kidn of stuff. Remember, one BTech hex is 30 meters. Missiles and rockets measure their range in klicks (kilometers).
Currently, there are no FASA/FanPro official guided missiles that I know of; however, that doesn't mean that you can't make your own.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: Spain
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| Posted: 16-Aug-2002 12:36 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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Another problem , a typical guided antitank missile, like MILAN costs $20,000 (twenty thousand) per missile. granted, it's a good investment because it kills a $5-million tank with one shot.
Now, in Battletech that's not the case, we have to fire dozens of warheads to cause any effect, it's impractical to have guidance systems with a 100% probability to hit in all of them. The guided missiles of Battletech, like Streaks and Artemis, are the best compromise solution that can be found, the standard missiles are glorified rockets fired in preset trajectories according to the firing solution calculated by the targetting computer, exactly the same workins as WWII torpedoes.
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Col. Dwight Chandra
Lewis' Executioners
C.O., Alpha Co.
Joined: 15-Aug-2002 00:00
Posts: 170
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Aug-2002 13:45 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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Your point is very well taken, and I do appreciate the input.
I agree that today it would be impractical to fire off 40 missiles with that kinda price tag. But by the same token, 20 years ago it would have been impractical to have a computer with 1 GB of RAM in every household. My point (and I think the point that my nephew was trying to make when he asked me the question) was that if these technologies even exist today, it is hard to figure out why they aren't utilized at all at the peak of mankind's technological achievement.
Just as a computer that in 1980 would only have been possessed by a large corporation or government office is now sitting in the bedroom of a 13 year-old kid being used to play Doom III, it seems only logical that tech that is extravagant by contemporary standards should be falling off the back of trucks in the year 2750.
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[ This Message was edited by: Col. Dwight Chandra on 2002-08-16 13:46 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Col. Dwight Chandra on 2002-08-16 13:47 ]
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 16-Aug-2002 13:53 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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Aren't we presuming that mechs have no basic ECM capabilities?
It's really quite logical if you think about it....SRMs and LRMs are guided missiles (MRMs are not based on their "fluff") and every mech has some sort of basic ECM ability to confuse those guided missiles. The missile chart roll is simply the number of missiles not fooled by ECM.
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Ares
Clan Jade Falcon
Star Colonel
Joined: 20-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 16-Aug-2002 14:13 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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You would think someone could make an image-reconignition seeker.
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Col. Dwight Chandra
Lewis' Executioners
C.O., Alpha Co.
Joined: 15-Aug-2002 00:00
Posts: 170
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Aug-2002 14:44 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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On 2002-08-16 13:53, chihawk wrote:
... The missile chart roll is simply the number of missiles not fooled by ECM.
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Thanks, chihawk! I like that explanation. So, basically all mechs have a "shareware" version of ECM, even if they do not have "ECM" on their record sheet. I like it!!!!
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 16-Aug-2002 15:28 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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I look at Guardian as an "add on" to the basic ECM system.
While I don't think Guardian does enough stuff for the weight, that's a topic for a different day. 
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
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Location: Spain
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| Posted: 16-Aug-2002 18:02 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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> My point was that if these technologies even exist today, it is hard to figure out why they aren't utilized at all at the peak of mankind's technological achievement.
Just as a computer that in 1980 would only have been possessed by a large corporation or government office is now sitting in the bedroom of a 13 year-old kid being used to play Doom III, it seems only logical that tech that is extravagant by contemporary standards should be falling off the back of trucks in the year 2750.
**************
Ahem, Battletech is an early 80s game. And look how fast the world has changed since then.
One of the many good things about Battletech is that it's the only sci-fi game I know that ages well.
Why? Because Battletech turned the idea of progress on their head. Technological decline. The tech of yesterday is *better* than the tech of today. That's the premise of Battletech.
So the elegant answer to the question of "why or why not is that gizmo available in 3025?" is, "it become lostech due to the devastation of the Succession Wars", instead of the real answer "because we couldn't imagine that back in 1985"
So there you are. Some of the stuff in Battletech is so far fetched you almost cannot tell it from magic. Other stuff makes you feel like the Inner Sphere was nuked back to the Stone Age, the contrast between the two is what makes the Battletech universe so fascinating (well, one-of-the-too-many-reasons to-list-them-here-and-now)
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 17-Aug-2002 13:00 Post subject: *ahem* |
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Another person having a dilemma over Btech missiles! Na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na! Missileboy jumps in to save the day.
Alright Chandra, I have done a good bit of research on guided munitions of various types so I think I can help you with your dilemma. The reason Btech missiles behave the way they do is because they are similar in design to FFAR missiles (such as hydras) used by the US military. With such missiles all "guidance" is enacted prior to launch, and in flight the missile is basically on its own and has no correction. The fluff for the 3025 Crusader seems to support this, as do the rules regarding how the missiles work. The rules do not have the missiles behave at all like guided missiles should (I think the original designers were just lazy).
I am depressed that this hasn't been mentioned already, but I have gone to the effort to make a set of rules for guided missiles with various guidance systems. Like Kraken said they do hit almost every time, but I reduced the power to make them not over-powering and they greatly enhance the usefulness of the AMS. They have been playtested (7 out of 8 gamers gave them a thumbs up), but be warned that they greatly change gameplay. If you want a copy email me.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 17-Aug-2002 13:10 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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Quote:
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On 2002-08-16 13:53, chihawk wrote:
Aren't we presuming that mechs have no basic ECM capabilities?
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No.
Basic ECM doesn't cut it today and surely won't cut it in the future. While past missiles have generally been designed around a single sensor type that can be easily fooled, newer missiles are not so stupid. Many have a multiplicity of sensor types to aid in tracking the enemy, and the future promises AI and sensor developments that will make missiles just as effective or better than humans at keeping track of the enemies.
Passive defense such as ECM will always have their place, but it will be secondary to more active systems. The future of missile defense systems are active systems that try to intercept or inhibit the missiles, not fool them. By the year 3000 I doubt ECM will have much of an effect at all.
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Gangrene
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2002-08-17 13:11 ]
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Vagabond
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| Posted: 17-Aug-2002 14:53 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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boy, your assuming alot.......
first, build a better sensor.... a better blocker gets built. the feild of hide n seek has always and will always be done.
second, you assume that either the technology exists or hasen't been defeated.... were as BT has said and shown time and again that technology is in the dumps.
third, lets not forget mans favorite ability....... the ability to forget. say that before the star league, the most advanced missile was built, then the most advanced ECM was built....... both technologies stagnate. then are displaced by the star league with more direct fire, unguided weapons that by pass this ECM. can't blind that which can't see.
eventually, the knowledge of high accuracy, self guiding missiles will be forgotten as out dated. this is of course a shot in the dark, and nothing more then conjecture...... seen as the only ppl that can awnser this dilema is wizkid/fanpro.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 17-Aug-2002 15:29 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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I see no reason why a mech can't have some sort of basic ECM system that affects missiles in the manner I suggest.
I know that most think there's a roll on the missile chart because the missiles suck, but I think the better explaination is that the missiles are good but mechs have a small amount of defense against them.
If the missles suck so bad then perhaps someone can explain why its possible that I could fire an LRM20 from 21 hexes away, from a heavy woods hex, thru a heavy woods hex, and into a heavy woods hex and still hit with all 20 missiles, meaning that none of the 20 hit any of the trees between me and the target? I say it's because the missiles have a guidance system that gets the missiles to their target, and the ones that miss after such a "long and perilous" journey are fooled into missing the target by ECM.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 17-Aug-2002 16:10 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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Quote:
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On 2002-08-17 15:29, chihawk wrote:
I see no reason why a mech can't have some sort of basic ECM system that affects missiles in the manner I suggest.
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The missiles would have to be pretty basic in order for your explanation to work. But the main poblem is that the way missiles are handled by the rules shows no sign of any guidance. There is a huge difference between a feedback based system and a system without feedback. But guns and missiles are handled exactly the same in Btech.
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I know that most think there's a roll on the missile chart because the missiles suck, but I think the better explaination is that the missiles are good but mechs have a small amount of defense against them.
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It would take a lot more than a small amount of defense to nullify all tracking ability. Its easier just to accept that there is no tracking ability. Plus FFAR in the US army have a purpose, its just not against moving armored targets.
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If the missles suck so bad then perhaps someone can explain why its possible . . . *snip*
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Thats called luck, and the situation you described could be done with bullets as well.
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Gangrene
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2002-08-18 11:20 ]
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Ares
Clan Jade Falcon
Star Colonel
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| Posted: 17-Aug-2002 16:10 Post subject: RE: Missle hits (old nagging problem) |
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Most Mech's with missile racks like that (MC MKII comes to mind) have inverted missile racks that fire them on a 45 degree angle upward to bombard a target instead of a direct 90 degree angle forward.
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