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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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 Posted: 22-Sep-2002 15:35 Post subject: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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I just finished Endgame today and I cannot believe what happened. Kathrine (Katrina) loses (obviously) and gets to go off to live with Vlad of the Wolf Clan.
After all the death and destruction that she caused along the entire inner sphere, with the assassinations of her mother and Omi Kurita, and attempt on Galen Cox, and possibly Arthur Steiner Davion, I mean.... come on now! She should have been shot and killed on sight when she surrendered. Give me a fricken break!
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"I have lived my life trying to be a virtuous man. The Dragon admires tenacity, and the code of the samurai upholds it as well." -Minobu Tetsuhara
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 22-Sep-2002 16:52 Post subject: RE: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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Sure...and you seem to forget that to many she was still a media darling (remember that some threatened violence if she wasn't released? She would have been a matyr to further violence if she was killed without the evidence to convict)...that Vic had enough evidence to convince, not convict (how many modern murderers get off on technicalities?)...and that Vlad threatened to bring war to an already devestated nation if Vic didn't hand her over...and that by sending her to the Crusader Wolves, after Vlad came specifically for her, her credibility with the Sphere will take a nose dive...
Also, to make any real use of her, Vlad will have to turn her into a warrior...unless the Wolves start a politician caste...
Ruger
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-Sep-2002 20:33 Post subject: RE: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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I disagree completely. He had enough evidence to convince her marshall of the armies, Jackson Davion of what she did. JD claimed that the nobles would be convinced also. Her evil deeds deserved the ultimate punishment, and no one was left in a position to help her anyway.
And as for the Wolves, what folly. To say that Vlad walks into Arc-Royal uncontested to deliver his demands.Hello! The truce IS over, he can start to war whenever he pleases. No one would hand over Katrina with her knowlege of strengths and weaknesses to one of their greatest enemies, so she could later attempt to retake her ill-gotten thrones.That's just completely unfathomable. Phelen would have challenged Vlad then and there and killed him.
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"I have lived my life trying to be a virtuous man. The Dragon admires tenacity, and the code of the samurai upholds it as well." -Minobu Tetsuhara
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 22-Sep-2002 20:49 Post subject: RE: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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While you make good points, the fact remains that if Vlad was killed here, or if Katherine was not handed over, then the Wolves would have started a war (and the Falcons likely would have joined in) that the Lyran nation CANNOT AFFORD AT THIS TIME...
Vic made the only choice he could, as did Phelan and Morgan...
As for Katherine being exiled rather than killed, there is historical precedent for this, including the likes of Napoleon, and some English monarchs...
And besides, you do remember that there was at least one time when it nearly did come to violence while transporting her...I believe that Tyra Miraborg has already demonstrated what one lone person intent on dying for their beliefs could do? One pilot almost did the same to Vic on his trip to take Katherine to Arc Royal...
Ruger
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Kraken
Federated Suns
Marshal
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-Sep-2002 22:01 Post subject: RE: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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There's only three things that Vlad could do to Katherine while she's with him.
1. She becomes his bondsman, working as his technician. This means that she is now on the lowest rung of the Clan military social ladder. It also means that she'll have to do her own work.
2. She gets turned into a freebirth pilot. IIRC, Clan Wolf is still short in areas ever since the Falcons tried to take them over. This means that Katherine will actually have to engage in combat in which she could very well die for once.
3. She gets turned into Vlad's servant/slave. If this is the case, any number of things can happen to her.
Either way, Katherine is now no longer a threat to anyone but herself and Vlad. She is now at the bottom of the social ladder, doing things that she could never have even dreamed of doing.
As it is, there was the suggestion that Victor could eventually hook up with Isis. It would serve to spite Sun-Tzu, as he snubbed her. This could also serve to injure the WOB. Remember, Victor went back to working for Comstar.
My only real complaints are that:
1. The book seemed too rushed. Two novels could have easily been made out of what was crammed into it.
2. Although we can guess, it never directly stated who whacked the Dancing Joker. My guess is that it was the ISF guy who succeded Subhash Idrahar. He and Idrahar were the only ones with the sheer guts and ruthless determination to pull it off.
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
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| Posted: 22-Sep-2002 22:30 Post subject: RE: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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Quote:
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On 2002-09-22 22:01, Kraken wrote:
2. Although we can guess, it never directly stated who whacked the Dancing Joker. My guess is that it was the ISF guy who succeded Subhash Idrahar. He and Idrahar were the only ones with the sheer guts and ruthless determination to pull it off.
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Try again...the one who did in DJ was a "bookish" man with considerable inner chi...
Why Ninyu Indrahar might have the guts and determination, only three people would have the real drive and motivation to do it...one couldn't dissappear for long enough to do it, one was too old...and neither were really the bookish type...that leaves only one man to do it, and after he stood up to Clan Nova Cat Elementals in hand to hand unaugmented combat, the DJ would have been nothing, especially considering that he took him by surprise with a katana...
Yep...Minoru Kurita is not someone I want to have ticked at me...
Ruger
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Sep-2002 07:43 Post subject: RE: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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Quote:
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On 2002-09-22 22:30, Ruger wrote:
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On 2002-09-22 22:01, Kraken wrote:
2. Although we can guess, it never directly stated who whacked the Dancing Joker. My guess is that it was the ISF guy who succeded Subhash Idrahar. He and Idrahar were the only ones with the sheer guts and ruthless determination to pull it off.
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Try again...the one who did in DJ was a "bookish" man with considerable inner chi...
Why Ninyu Indrahar might have the guts and determination, only three people would have the real drive and motivation to do it...one couldn't dissappear for long enough to do it, one was too old...and neither were really the bookish type...that leaves only one man to do it, and after he stood up to Clan Nova Cat Elementals in hand to hand unaugmented combat, the DJ would have been nothing, especially considering that he took him by surprise with a katana...
Yep...Minoru Kurita is not someone I want to have ticked at me...
Ruger
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I agree Ruger. Minoru is an individual you must consider a major life hazard if he's angry and determined, at/about you. Killing a relative is a personal thing and needed to taken care of personally. I like that about the end of the Dancing Joker.
As for katherine being given to Vlad, He will have to take her as a bondsman. There is no place for the Royal 'We' in their society. She will make it or not on her own, not what she was born to...
I'd still like her cut into a thousand pieces and given as a paperweight...
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A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: Spain
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| Posted: 23-Sep-2002 10:34 Post subject: RE: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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I was disappointed that we didn't got rid of the Steiner-Davion mongrels. At least in the Lyran Alliance there's hope because there are quite a few Steiners around.
But I fear that the Davion dynasty has come to an end. Funny thing, the only time the possibility was mentioned regarding House Kurita.
Is there are any pure-blood Davion around? seems the only alternative is a Hasek-Davion, who aren't Davion in the lest.
Sure those Citizens for Davion Purity wackos had somebody in mind.
But as said, the farce is over. It's a relief that all the idiocy came to an end, and we can go back to 3025 and do things the way they should have been.
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Slythis
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 09-Aug-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 23-Sep-2002 17:11 Post subject: RE: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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My bet is that the Clan why of life is about to come to a screeching hault how or why, I'm not really sure, but I get the odd feeling SOMETHING is going to happen.
As for what Vlad is going to do to her? I'm almost willing to bet he'll make her his Sakhan and kick Raddick out of office, remember that Vlad caught her once and could've saved Vic a lot of trouble by keeping her but he saw great potential in her as an ally and let her go (This all took place in the book Malicious Intent if you were wondering)
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Sep-2002 17:28 Post subject: RE: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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If he does do that he will end his career as Khan and have his bloodnamed reeved as well. No Clan warrior, especially a Crusader will allow a non-warrior to be appointed as saKhan.
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The Ice Hellion Roars
The Fast and Furious
For the Foe Oblivion
[ This Message was edited by: Jade_Dragon on 2002-09-23 17:29 ]
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Sep-2002 18:34 Post subject: RE: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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What he does with her is unimportant. What information he will be able to get from her is. Whether by bedding her our by forcefully removing that info, the result will be the same. The wolves will have information devestating to the IS at their disposal.
Napoleon was not defeated by his brother,and was not responsible for assassinating his mother and IIRC was not involved in a Civil War of any kind.
If the wolves started the war, which they can still do at any time they wish, It is doubtful that it would lead to any long term success. The alliance military is still pretty strong including the Arc-royal defense forces. And the Clans are more likely to resume infighting than help each other out in a goal to take Terra.
Yvonne will probably drop the Steiner surname and her heir will be a Davion-Sanduval.
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"I have lived my life trying to be a virtuous man. The Dragon admires tenacity, and the code of the samurai upholds it as well." -Minobu Tetsuhara
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 23-Sep-2002 19:58 Post subject: RE: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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Quote:
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On 2002-09-23 18:34, Horhiro wrote:
The alliance military is still pretty strong including the Arc-royal defense forces. |
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Reality check here...Are you looking at the same listings of what survived the Civil War that I am?
We have around 50 regiments (including March Militias) after all was said and done...this is around 2/3rds or less of our pre-war strength...to guard HUNDREDS of worlds...
Ruger
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Slythis
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 09-Aug-2002 00:00
Posts: 712
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| Posted: 23-Sep-2002 20:51 Post subject: RE: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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Quote:
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On 2002-09-23 17:28, Jade_Dragon wrote:
If he does do that he will end his career as Khan and have his bloodnamed reeved as well. No Clan warrior, especially a Crusader will allow a non-warrior to be appointed as saKhan.
[ This Message was edited by: Jade_Dragon on 2002-09-23 17:29 ]
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Like I said I get the feeling that there is about to be a huge change in the clan way of life, not to mention that in the DA history (as much as I hate to admit it DA IS part of the time line) they make referance to a Katrina Ward... though I don't know where.
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Sep-2002 20:52 Post subject: RE: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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Back in 3025 the Lyrans only fielded about 75 regiments, and the technological difference in 3067 would make up for quite a bit of that differential.There's less systems to defend thanks to the clan invasion also. Take away having to worry about fighting the Davions in the near future and it stands to reason that that's quite enough forces to turn back any one clan's advances. Archer's Avengers and Adam Steiner's forces were enough to blunt Clan Jade Falcon's incursion. The Clans singly just don't have enough resouces to maintain an invasion corridor.
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"I have lived my life trying to be a virtuous man. The Dragon admires tenacity, and the code of the samurai upholds it as well." -Minobu Tetsuhara
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 23-Sep-2002 22:09 Post subject: RE: Endgame....very disapointed (spoilers) |
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You make some erronous assumptions here...
1) The Clans are a bigger threat today than the Dracs were in 3025...
2) While we may have fewer overall worlds to garrison, the front still has about the same number, and of those, many are more important that those of the front in 3025...
3) While we had around 75 front line regiments in 3025, of our 50 remaining regiments, around 15 to 20 or so are March Militias, which generally have older equipment...we look ok on paper until you start noticing that we are at almost 1/3rd our pre-Clan Invasion front line forces (remember, most of the Donegal Guards, the Skye Rangers, and many Lyran Guard regiments were MAULED, if not destroyed outright)...
4) Of those forces we do have, virtually none are at full strength, or even really close to it...even the Wolves-in-Exile and the Kell Hounds had been drained by the war...
5) There's a reason America's "Island Hopping" campaign was so successful during WW2, and why the Clan Invasion was so successful when it took place...you can't place forces on every world that can be hit in sufficient quantities (well, maybe you can in real life, but not in the world of BTech) and be sure of killing all of an invading enemy...they can pick and chose where to hit...you have to hope you can get them before they bug out...
There is a reason the FCCWSB says the Lyran nation will be DECADES in recovering...don't forget that we lost a couple 'Mech and armor factories to the Falcons...
Ruger
[ This Message was edited by: Ruger on 2002-09-23 22:12 ]
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