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AlexxKnight
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 11-Feb-2002 00:00
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 Posted: 23-Oct-2002 18:49 Post subject: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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As I read Raven's post in Design Submissions for the Wolf Submarine, I had one question:
What purpose does a naval unit really serve in the BattleTech Universe? Are they relaly al lthat usefull? Essentially they are stuck on the planet that they are delpoyed on. So why use them, especially when other units can better defend an area near the shoreline, and can also be used else where, and easily transported to another planet.
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Alexx Knight
Lance Sgt.
Command Company, Crimson Janissaries
[ This Message was edited by: AlexxKnight on 2002-10-23 18:50 ]
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Alexx Knight, Lance Sgt.
Command Company, Crimson Janissaries
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The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. . . And you
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Oct-2002 19:00 Post subject: RE: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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Because underwater stations are very hard to defend with BattleMechs, and very easy to defend with submarines (and submarines are cheaper then BattleMechs). When people attack Bryant they have to cross a lot of rivers, and if they want any success they have to hit the military head and heart of my Russian defenses, which is deep underwater. I've had people try to use BattleMechs to get me, and I tore them apart with Wolf Submarines and Neptunes. And you can transport naval units, just like any other vehicle. They are just harder to transport is all. However, a Wolf Submarine can be taken in a transport truck to a Dropship fully intact (all you need is ten tons of cargo space).
Raven!
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Talen
Capellan Confederation
Sang-shao
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Oct-2002 19:00 Post subject: RE: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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Maybe its some sort of defense for local only.
I remember in Mechwarrior 2: Ghost Bear's Legacy there was a mission where you had to attack an underwater base. There were subs gaurding the way.
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AlexxKnight
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 11-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 787
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| Posted: 23-Oct-2002 19:06 Post subject: RE: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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On 2002-10-23 19:00, Raven! wrote:
And you can transport naval units, just like any other vehicle. They are just harder to transport is all. However, a Wolf Submarine can be taken in a transport truck to a Dropship fully intact (all you need is ten tons of cargo space).
Raven!
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I don't know, I never really thought that naval units could really be transported is all. Maybe for an underwater base they may be good, but I was thinking more along the lines of a general planetary defense situation, are ethey really usefull
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Alexx Knight, Lance Sgt.
Command Company, Crimson Janissaries
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Oct-2002 19:08 Post subject: RE: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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Depends, mount some artillery in a ship, give it some supply ships and subs to guard and watch the war for a planet really bog down. They have their uses, and in fact will generally cause hell to BattleMechs far from shore.
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Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Oct-2002 19:16 Post subject: RE: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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To say any battlefield unit is useless is incorrect. However, when it comes to usefullness, naval vessels are definitely at the bottom of the list.
First off, they are limited to bodies of water, a limitation no other Btech unit has.
Secondly, they are fairly fragile, I think only infantry and VTOL's are quicker to die.
These are the main concerns, in which the first is the most damning. Most battles occur on land mostly because most facilities are there. If you have 1 Mech regiment and a wet navy of a few hundred ships, and I have 2 regiments of Mechs, I'm likely going to win. There are usually few reasons to get close to a navy, and if you want to protect ports, you're usually better off with vehicles.
Additionally, unless you have enough ships to cover all ports, I can raid them when your ships arent there, and wait for your vessels to run out of supplies.
Further, naval vessels are rather vulnerable to aerofighter attacks.
That's not to say they're useless. Underwater combat, submarines rule. Raven made some quite accurate comments there. Also the Neptune fluff is a good example.
Surface vessels I see little use for. Their use is too limited, and they'd only work to safeguard other naval transports from piracy.
A gimmick like an AeroSpace fighter carrier could work, but again, surface vessels are vulnerable, and a DropShip fighter carrier would usually be more useful. You can deploy that one almost anywhere on a planet, and off.
Again, I dont think naval vessels are useless, but they're almost always better things to spend your money on.
Paul
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Oct-2002 19:20 Post subject: RE: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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I beg to differ. Btech artillery range is pitiful, and the 10km action radius your naval vessels will have would be almost completely insignificant.
Like I said in my other post, no battlefield unitis useless, but naval vessels are definitely on the bottom of the list.
Paul
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crabcakes66
Draconis Combine
Go-cho
Joined: 09-Oct-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 23-Oct-2002 19:51 Post subject: RE: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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Wet-naval suface shipdefinetly have a place in b-tech for me..(surface ship commannd base that can sit out of reach of mechs for the most part,and the boats and subs that defend it,and yes its almost been destroyed by fighters a few times)this isnt part of b-tech though the game wasnt designed to support naval surface combat very well.
subs are another matter not surewich book says it but an equal tonnage mech VS sub fight will nearly always end up with the sub the winner.
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AlexxKnight
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 11-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 23-Oct-2002 20:05 Post subject: RE: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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I would just like to say for the record, that I believe Naval forces are useful in reality (afterall I am a US Naval Officer). But as crabcakes, noted, I don't think that the system is really set up for Naval forces to play a real significant role in general. In some caes sure they can be useful, some of which have been mentioned already. But for the most part they seem to be the water equivalent of static defenses. But that is just the way I see it. Large naval units would just be too hard to move form one planet to another.
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Command Company, Crimson Janissaries
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Oct-2002 20:33 Post subject: RE: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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How about using subs in this way. Load them up with lrms, have a spotter in the air/on land and indirectly blast the snot out of anyone near a coastline.
As long as the subs stay submerged they cannot be attacked from the ground. seems like good coastal mobile artillery, no?
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Oct-2002 20:36 Post subject: RE: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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Horhiro:
As long as the subs stay submerged they cannot be attacked from the ground. seems like good coastal mobile artillery, no?
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Kinda like CO Recon's idea, except with an even shorter range. And thus even less useful. 
Paul
Edit: messed up the quote.
[ This Message was edited by: Paul on 2002-10-23 20:37 ]
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Oct-2002 20:44 Post subject: RE: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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Quote:
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On 2002-10-23 20:05, AlexxKnight wrote:
I would just like to say for the record, that I believe Naval forces are useful in reality (afterall I am a US Naval Officer). |
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Ah, realism?
Realistically, even Mechs would be secondary units. The main units would be WarShips, supported closely by DropShips and Aerospace fighters.
I don't care if you have 50 regiments, and I have 5. If I can control whether or not you can move those 50, and if I can strike at them from orbit without any fear of retaliation, I will win.
It's basically equivalent to why navies are and were so important to us now: they control our main transport artery. And if you control that, you can control a war.
Sure, you'll always need something to hold terrain. But in that role I see battlearmored infantry supported by vehicles. Mechs would likely be scout units only, apart from artificial rules crutches, there is no reason why a Mech would be more dangerous then a tank. If I can put it on a Mech, I can put it on a tank, and I'll have a lower profile to. Realistically, that'll mean more.
In fact, modern day warfare seems to already be heading in that direction. Most modern combat happens in the air, and the navy tends to function as escorts, supply and missile bases.
(But I'm hardly a military expert, so my perception may be flawed)
True interstellar combat would leave a wet navy almost useless. Surface vessels are way to easy to pick off from orbit, and for submarines to be useful, I'd need a reason to go underwater first.
Paul
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
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| Posted: 23-Oct-2002 20:46 Post subject: RE: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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Well I guess it would have to be for specific instances. Say the Capital of a world was like Hawaii. Back in the day, I rember water-rich planets being considered very important. How better to protect your assets than with sub fleets? Also remember that not all worlds are defended by mech forces, and many have only perhaps a lance if best. Navel warfare on some worlds could still be the key to dominance.
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Oct-2002 21:02 Post subject: RE: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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Hey, I never claimed naval vessels would be completely useless. They're just at the bottom of the ladder from my perspective.
Even on wet worlds, who are so important because they're so rare, you'd have a hard time getting anything in range of said naval vessels for it to matter.
I think you underestimate the really short range of Btech weapons, and the immense size of even a 'small' landmass like Hawaii.
Paul
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Oct-2002 21:13 Post subject: RE: Naval Units: Are they Worthwhile in BattleTech? |
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Maybe we need a new arty weapon...*runs off to tinker*
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Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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