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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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 Posted: 03-Apr-2003 20:00 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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On 2003-04-03 17:05, Gangrene wrote:
I know. Its in the "attracting the mass market" where that set of rules fails.
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I started to play this game after what all you old timers call the Dark Times. I grew up with Level 1/2 Inner Sphere machines and Clan Tech. (Sometimes all in the same combat group.) I learned no simplified rules when I started. I did all steps, right from the start and I was excited. The game may be old and perhaps rickety, but I enjoyed it from the moment I played it and so have those I have introduced it to. If B-Tech isn't reaching the mass market, I believe the problem is lack of advertising. Just a youngsters opinion.
The only time BattleTech starts to fail is in large engagements...which is why I wish I could find a copy of BattleForce 2 or whatever it was. *sigh* I don't really see changing the rules as a solution. Then you have BattleTech 2, not BattleTech. 
Feel free to tell me I'm an idiot. lol 
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"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-Apr-2003 20:59 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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On 2003-04-03 20:00, CO_17thRecon wrote:
The game may be old and perhaps rickety, but I enjoyed it from the moment I played it and so have those I have introduced it to. If B-Tech isn't reaching the mass market, I believe the problem is lack of advertising. Just a youngsters opinion.
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I have heard similar stories from other people, and my own is not so different (except I started in the 3025 days). A single person's story is rarely representative of the statistical norm. The sheer popularity of WH40K or MWDA would imply that there is something attractive about those games over Battletech to the average gamer beyond mere advertising.
However, I do agree that Btech could be more popular if serious advertising existed.
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The only time BattleTech starts to fail is in large engagements...which is why I wish I could find a copy of BattleForce 2 or whatever it was. *sigh* I don't really see changing the rules as a solution. Then you have BattleTech 2, not BattleTech.
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Yeah, as Btech games become large they become very cumbersome and long.
Maybe a Btech2 is whats required to save the game. Even if CBT was not the main product, as long as it existed and benefited from the mass market game then I think the change would be for the better.
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Gangrene
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-Apr-2003 21:01 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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That would be a challenge. Some games have "sheets" that use counters instead of being marked on. For a simplified game that might be a possibility.
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Gangrene
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8081
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-Apr-2003 21:42 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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On 2003-04-03 21:01, Gangrene wrote:
That would be a challenge. Some games have "sheets" that use counters instead of being marked on. For a simplified game that might be a possibility.
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There is already a mecha game that doesn't use record sheets...its called MechWarrior: Dark Age.
Enjoy.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-Apr-2003 22:33 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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I would if it wasn't so lame. I think MWDA goes in the right direction for mass market purposes, I just don't like the details.
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Gangrene
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Cadet
ComStar
Lieutenant, SG
Joined: 17-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 495
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| Posted: 04-Apr-2003 01:30 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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On 2003-04-03 20:00, CO_17thRecon wrote:
The only time BattleTech starts to fail is in large engagements...which is why I wish I could find a copy of BattleForce 2 or whatever it was. |
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To be fair though, that isn't a failing of the game itself, as much as players trying to go beyond the scale of the design. it was designed for Lance/Platoon/Company scale engagements. Trying to portray Operational Level engagement with those Tactical rules is self defeating.
Example: You play with a Mech Battalion. In real life, as a Battalion commander you'd reconnoiter, plan attacks, and react to the battle, shifting troops, deploying reinforcements, and the like. With the tactical rules we have, there simply is no time to do any of that. This is not just real life time constraints, but game time constraints. At 10 seconds per turn, it would take some 360 turns to simulate 1 hour. Battles often don't even develop within that time, especially the higher you go.
But say you fight your battalion battle. It take 30 turns. In that time you lose 1/2 your battlemechs. Doesn't sound so bad, but you're talking about losing 50% of your force in 5 minutes. Again, those losses don't happen in so short of a time.
And part of it is that if you're fighting a regimental battle, as regiment commander you have no business knowing that Mech A has 3 rounds of Gauss ammo left, or Mech B has a missing arm. Patton said the essence of command was to give orders one level below you, and to know where your people are 2 levels below you. For the Regimental Commander, that means giving orders to the Battalion Commanders, and knowing (or trying to) where your individual companies are, and their conditions.
Not to continue rambling, but Battletech isn't designed to fight anything more than company on company. it fails with anything bigger than that simply because it wasn't designed to do more.
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Cadet
ComStar
Lieutenant, SG
Joined: 17-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 495
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| Posted: 04-Apr-2003 01:50 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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On 2003-04-03 22:33, Gangrene wrote:
I would if it wasn't so lame. I think MWDA goes in the right direction for mass market purposes, I just don't like the details.
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Well, being the flagship game for the BattleTech line, MWDA is the wave of the future. The simplicity is nice, and makes for quick games, but it is seriously lacking in the details (and as the old saying goes, God is in the details).
The game we all know and love is now the add-on game, much as BattleForce and BattleTroops were to us.
What does that mean? No revamping of our game. It would require too much effort (game mechanics aside, just converting all those mechs and being able to create new ones would be a major hassle) and the fan base simply is not there anymore. If, and I stress if, it were revamped to be somewhere in between MWDA and BattleTech it might attract more players, but going from the near braindead simplicity of MWDA to all the bookkeeping of BT...well you aren't going to get a lot of converts, especially when you consider who MWDA is marketed toward.
I think the major sticking point, and this is what drives a lot people away, isn't the complexity of the rules, as much as time. A simple lance on lance fight takes two hours at a minimum. Chart after chart, dice rolling galore, heat, more dice rolling, line of sight, still more dice rolling...well you get the idea. Still I think it is possible to have a quick game that isn't insulting like MWDA, but doesn't get so bogged down in rules, charts, and dice rolling.
1) Get rid of heat. Make it a design requirement that Mechs have to dissipate X heat per turn with X being maximum possible heat. Of course this will require redoing some of the heat stats for weapons and equipment.
2) Revamp missiles. Maybe make all missiles like the Thunderbolt. Instead of peppering the target and requiring a bunch of rolls, for number that hit and then location, just have a roll for if it hits and where. While this would make the missile no better than any other weapon, it would be possible to simulate some missiles not hitting out of a salvo by rolling the number that hit, but all go to a single location.
3) Armor penetration. Certain weapons should go internal all the time, gutting the mech from the inside out, rather than scrubbing off armor. This would speed up game play if mechs would lose internal equipment long before all the armor is gone.
While BT was revolutionary with its speed when introduced, it just drags these days and that's the problem. it should be possible to have a mech game with the complexity we have now, and the speed and simplicity of MWDA. unfortunately it isn't going to happen and that's simply because MWDA is the brand name and our game isn't.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-Apr-2003 07:36 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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Those details make the game come alive. If everything was easy as click..click.. Everyone would use it and then get tired of it. There's nothing to keep you interested....
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-Apr-2003 09:28 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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Search the web for RenTech or something to that effect. Someone took the cool recordsheet ideas for the Renegade Legion game series and applied them to BattleMechs.
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The JadeDragon
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-Apr-2003 17:42 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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On 2003-04-04 07:36, Sir Henry wrote:
Those details make the game come alive. If everything was easy as click..click.. Everyone would use it and then get tired of it. There's nothing to keep you interested....
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I disagree. Extraneous details can add to the game, but in gameplay they can detract from it as well. A clicky could, theoretically, be just as deep as Btech in gameplay. Chess is a good example. Arguabley the gameplay has much more depth than Btech or MWDA, and it does so without sheets, layers of accounting, stats, or dice rolls.
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Gangrene
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2003-04-04 17:43 ]
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Gangrene
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1625
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-Apr-2003 20:26 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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What the game really needs to stay alive is CHEAP minis. Yes, that's what I said: CHEAP minis! Pre-painted plastic CBT minis a la Dark age, but on regular hex bases. Make them smaller if need be to keep the prices down.
When I started with the Commandos it was esential to only play with painted minis. The point is that Btech should be a minis game. Yes, as Chihawk has once stated the game can be played with pennies and no record sheets (just write out the stats) but to continue to thrive it must make a statement in the Minis game genre.
Unfortunatley the worst thing about the game is cost. No kid or adult just getting into the game is going to drop $8-$10 per mini, then have to paint it, then buy hex bases, then flock those....blah blah blah.
CBT needs to follow the plan that works, not try to reinvent the wheel. Sorry IWM but the prices are just too high. Cheap, painted minis and a company to make kewl affordable terrain (geo-hex way too expensive) and cardboard buildings would bring tons of new players in. Visual effects are what would sell this game well,that's what all these gamers love about the video games!
Leave the game engine alone. Newbie rules are already in place which simplify the game (such as ignoring heat). Bring the game alive into it's 3-D miniature (toy) glory in an AFFORDABLE way and see what happens.
Bobby: "hey look what I just bought, the black widow command lance!"
Billy: "kewl, I got Phelans wolf star yesterday, let's play!"
Just my .02
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1625
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-Apr-2003 20:33 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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Just thought of something else. In each lance/star box of minis 2 varient mech sheets of each mech/infantry/vehicle could be included along with a random scenerio.
And bring back a battletech cartoon, a good one this time.
And a batteltech Comic book, a good one this time.
And cheap battleTech t-shirts, like $3, heck you won't make any money on them, but at that price everyone will be wearing one and think of all the advertising!!
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"I have lived my life trying to be a virtuous man. The Dragon admires tenacity, and the code of the samurai upholds it as well." -Minobu Tetsuhara
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-Apr-2003 21:14 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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On 2003-04-04 20:26, Horhiro wrote:
What the game really needs to stay alive is CHEAP minis. Yes, that's what I said: CHEAP minis! Pre-painted plastic CBT minis a la Dark age, but on regular hex bases. Make them smaller if need be to keep the prices down.
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That certainly would help. I would buy minis if I didn't have to assemble and paint them.
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Gangrene
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-Apr-2003 21:15 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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There was a Btech comic book?
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Gangrene
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Major
Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 1611
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| Posted: 04-Apr-2003 22:30 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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I have some of those old comics. A few had what might have been okay beginnings to a storyline. They really ought to see about a real monthly comic book, one with a complex and evolving story.
Just take a mercenary company, populate it with mechjocks, techs, a medic or two, some grunts and run with it. Need a big plot twist after a couple of years? Kill off the captain and bring in his cousin from halfway across the inner sphere. It wouldn't be hard to create a good ongoing story with plenty of good plot elements in it. After all, the best btech novels are usually not the ones that are just a constant slugfest, it would be the same for a comic book, I'd think.
They could make some money off of it and while they were at it they could fill that book with ads for both MW:DA and Battletech.
[ This Message was edited by: Gunslinger Patch on 2003-04-04 22:32 ]
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