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Morbo
Capellan Confederation
Shia-ben-bing
Joined: 27-May-2003 00:00
Posts: 5
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 Posted: 30-May-2003 22:52 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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From what I have seen so far of MWDA, I have formed the belief that the foot-shooting fool element of old FASA is now working (if any of these folks are still working) over at Whizkids where they are giving us the jihad to write themselves out of the corner they wrote themselves into to begin with.
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I think I'll spare you the whole pro MWDA litany, I'm sure you've heard it enough. Let me just say I disagree with you, and that you're incorrect about several points.
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Too bad Mickael Stackpole flat out admitted that. See here:
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| 5) Why did you abandon the previous timeline? Okay, this is a purely emotional question, and it presumes facts not at all in evidence. The previous timeline has not been abandoned, any more than what happened in the 4th Succession War was abandoned when we took the 20 year jump to bring in the Clans. We were looking for a place where we could reenter the BattleTech saga at a point of maximum impact, a point that would allow us to continue telling stories for decades to come. As I have noted before, we'd really written ourselves into a corner where we were just going to be retreading old stories and you'd have hated that. Heck, we would have hated that, so the whole game would suffer. |
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See it here: http://www.stormwolf.com/essays/btechret2.html
[ This Message was edited by: Morbo on 2003-05-30 22:53 ]
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 31-May-2003 07:26 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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On 2003-05-30 09:01, Paul wrote:
As for Clan culture, consider that nothing is more important then victory. Nothing. One's personal honor comes secondary to a victory for the Clan. In that context, the dishonor of having to pilot an artillery unit is offset by the increased chance of victory.
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Yup, that's the ticket. The clanners are actually quite much like the samurai of 16th century Japan. You must win before you can make the victory look honorable. Even while the samurai thought gunpowder weapons beneath a true warrior, the lords who fought to become Shogun used such. IIRC Tokugawa destroyed the Takeda cavalry army with guns, but if anyone thought it dishonorable they didn't say so.
Enough honorable victories makes it easier for a clanner to move up the career ladder and perhaps become Khan one day. Sure, you need to be a competent warrior for personal challenges and such. It's still leading others to victory that brings you the support needed for the higher positions in a clan.
Just remind your fellow warriors that killing honorless scum doesn't increse personal honor, it's just a job that needs doing. They'll happily let you use all the artillery you want. It saves valuable resources too, so you'll get a reputation for being careful with the clan's property.
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A tree fall in the forest, and no one is around, and it hits a mime. Does anyone care?
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 31-May-2003 09:03 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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Yeah, I'm familiar with that essay.
Who did they get to spark the MWDA story?
Mike Stackpole. Loren Coleman.
What did they do?
Inflate a pre-planned event to something phenomenal.
Result?
Universe out of a rut.
The whole argument that the universe is going to be written into a corner again is pretty pointless. It happens. People run out of ideas.
They take 5, look at it from a different angle, shake things up and the story's moving along again.
I fail to see the problem.
Paul
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Morbo
Capellan Confederation
Shia-ben-bing
Joined: 27-May-2003 00:00
Posts: 5
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| Posted: 31-May-2003 15:29 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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The problem is originality...or in this case, the lack thereof. Instead of getting some fresh blood and a new storyline, we get the same people who wrote themselves into a corner and a rut giving us a rehashed and bastardized 3025 storyline.
It's damning when the main storyline author flat out admits they didn't know what else they could do except shoot the storyline forward to get out of the fix they put the game universe in.
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 31-May-2003 15:57 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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Well, that's your opinion.
And when you shake things up, you typically have to move things forward by a bit.
After all, unless you want to introduce aliens (urg) or pull another Clans type idea out of nowehere, you have to start with what's there, shake it up, and then rebuild.
Also, just because MWDA is similar to 3025, and you don't like it, doesn't mean it's a bad idea.
IMO the bad idea was moving away from that flavor.
Considering you (and pretty much all of the other naysayers) say the same thing, what would *you* do instead? How would you fix this problem?
Paul
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 31-May-2003 18:12 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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On 2003-05-31 15:57, Paul wrote:Considering you (and pretty much all of the other naysayers) say the same thing, what would *you* do instead? How would you fix this problem?
Paul
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Nay. Nay. Naaaayyyyy!
Ahem. Sorry, a bit horse this morning.
Seriously, there were several ideas that *I* had for getting out of the hole. It ammounted to a reboot of sorts, yes, but one that worked within, rather than without, teh storyline. Sadly, some of the changes in the last couple of years made it hard (Katrina out of Steiner, a certain Kurita-lass killed, leaving Victor to the tender arms of Kai), but the majority is still go-able.
1) Victor has Yvonne keep the Davion throne, but sans Katrina influence. Davion and Steiner break in full, ending teh MegaHouse.
2) Victor takes the 'New Star League', adding in the Kell Hounds and other big name 'Good Guy' mercenary houses, save the Dragoons, and leads a second Exodus, moving to the Smoke(d) Jaguar's now-vacant homeworld, to set himself up as the new Kerensky. Starcharts leading there are destroyed by Comstar, leaving no way to follow.
3) Clans integrate into Inner Sphere culture, losing their tech edge due to non-replaceable bits (Liek factories) back home ... the Nova Cats become the 'Shinto Priests' of Kurita's Japan, the Ghost Bears turn the FRR into a full-fledged house, and teh Diamond Sharks find true love in a mercentile gypsy sort of life, moving from house to house, planet to planet, to sell goods.
4) The Dragoons get nuked from orbit (Only way to be sure) ... credit the withered old Waco, to close out the circle.
5) With the massive power vacuum, strife erupts along old borders: The Davion-Liao border goes first as Davion attacks the weaker power, then the Davion-Kurita border goes. Marik collapses in civil war (Shocking, I know), while Steiner spins off a mini-power as a buffer state... yay, Skye!
6) The Word of Blake, now renamed ComStar (As opposed to Comstar, now known as 'The Heretics' or 'The Exiled', retakes Earth, setting it up as a neutral zone. A small empire forms from here, dedicated to peace and teh preservation of Earth's ways, but which is also all too happy to deal weapons to everyone else so that they can keep fighting one another.
7) Massive loss of mech facilities in all Houses. Not to the 3025 levels, but not much larger (Say, 3025 levels, plus 0-2, by and large)
8) Re-organization and re-stressing of militaries in teh Inner Sphere. Mechs are rare again, high-tech ones are akin to gold. Basic theory is that Mechs are for the attack, conventional for defense. Tech stagnates again.
9) Concentrate, once the balance is reached, with keeping the balance, not tilting it. It can *feel* like one House is going to get a lead, but make sure it gets a resulting bloody nose at soem point. In wrestling, this takes teh terms of doing teh job, puttnig someone over, and getting the rub ... in short, conflict only works when the sides are well-matched. No one force can get too strong.
10) Lastly, keep a constant low-end update status, via magazine or website, to always keep fresh ideas popping about. New developments are life!
There, ten points about teh universe and writing, not the rules. I can get a whole lot more specific if needed, believe me. Dark Ages got some of it right, but not all. The key element is this: What was doing so much damage to the story? Victor the Invincible, Kai the God, and the FedCom lording over everyone so massively. Flatten that group, and things level out again.
-- Old Dog, never short of breath.
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Morbo
Capellan Confederation
Shia-ben-bing
Joined: 27-May-2003 00:00
Posts: 5
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| Posted: 31-May-2003 18:22 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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The first thing I would do is stop calling people who disagree with The Powers That Be "Naysayers" "Fearmongers" "Party Poopers" or whatever the en vogue term is. It's condescending and is nothing more than a way to dismiss the voice without even attempting to deal with their argument. It serves no more purpose than my calling you an "Apologist" "Mouthpiece" or a "Quisling."
The second thing I would do is fire Stackpole, Coleman, and the rest of the writing staff. They are clearly unable to write, and even admit as much by saying they wrote themselves into a corner and couldn't figure out how to fix it. Replace them with people who can write.
I would not have jumped ahead 60+ years in the storyline and would instead have picked the end of the FedCom Civil War as the new starting point. It would have made sense for new players to be come in at a common point and would not alienate many older players. I would have kept Word Of Blake, but dumped the retarded Jihad (Now With Nukes!) storyline. I would focus more on expanding the current universe than moving the game forward for a while. Move novels like the Grey Death Trilogy dealing with a smaller unit and fewer like the Warrior Trilogy.
I'm all for blowing the BattleTech universe to pieces, and even for getting back to the Mechs' are rare idea, but not in the manner that has been presented. It doesn't help when the writers just throw their hands up and proclaim they don't know what to do. It's simple: if they are unable to write the way out of the mess they put the game in, then get rid of them and get someone who can.
[ This Message was edited by: Morbo on 2003-05-31 18:25 ]
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Jun-2003 07:06 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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maybe a "blowing up the writer's block" thread should be started.
Getting back on subject.... Didn't the Ice Hellions have a major purge due to a traitorous rebellion? Maybe the mech design has its roots there. Since the mechs were built and "waste not want not" they still use them because even a cheesy mech is better than a vehicle?
I don't know about explaining the arrow and tag mechs in other clans, but it might be a simple case of having them around for another Tukkayid situation. Have the Freeborn and Dezgra warriors take out the I.S. artillery, an inglorious chore. The Trueborn and frontline units can then concentrate on the Zellbriggen style combat of mech on mech.
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Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side & a dark side, and strings also lie under it all.
Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Major
Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 1611
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| Posted: 03-Jun-2003 03:13 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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Through all this I formed the general opinion that such weapons don't fit with the Clans, since the Clan trueborns don't like them there is no good reason for why they were built, much less maintained (using valuable spare parts).
But, on the other hand. I think Rarich just stated the clearest and best reason why a Clan would keep TAG and support fire weapons in the inventory. In order to protect the trueborns from having to fight IS support units, leaving them free to fight only enemy mechs and be happy.
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"Those who beat their guns into plows will plow for those with guns..." -Thomas Jefferson
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8081
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-Jun-2003 06:06 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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On 2003-06-03 03:13, Gunslinger Patch wrote:
Through all this I formed the general opinion that such weapons don't fit with the Clans, since the Clan trueborns don't like them there is no good reason for why they were built, much less maintained (using valuable spare parts).
But, on the other hand. I think Rarich just stated the clearest and best reason why a Clan would keep TAG and support fire weapons in the inventory. In order to protect the trueborns from having to fight IS support units, leaving them free to fight only enemy mechs and be happy.
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You mean the exact reason that I posted 17 days ago on 2 different messageboards? 
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www.210sportsblog.com
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-Jun-2003 08:44 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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They are being a little slow, Forgive them... 
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Major
Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 1611
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| Posted: 03-Jun-2003 23:56 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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LOL. What I meant to say is that a Clan would make their freebirths use the Clan support weapons to seek out and attack the IS support weapons, so the Trueborns wouldn't have to get their hands dirty doing that and would be often insulated from being shot at with IS support weapons. And a traditional or narrowminded Clan would likely use their TAG and arty for only that, not for supporting 1st line trueborn units.
I could see some Clans, such as the Jade Falcons taking every opportunity to make sure the IS tanks get engaged only by Freebirth mechwarriors and vehicles. Since the Smoked Jags weren't supposed to have any freebirths as warriors (or at least as mechwarriors) I'm not sure how they would handle that. Sick some Solahma on them maybe?
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"Those who beat their guns into plows will plow for those with guns..." -Thomas Jefferson
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Jun-2003 10:20 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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On 2003-05-31 18:22, Morbo wrote:
The first thing I would do is stop calling people who disagree with The Powers That Be "Naysayers" "Fearmongers" "Party Poopers" or whatever the en vogue term is. It's condescending and is nothing more than a way to dismiss the voice without even attempting to deal with their argument. It serves no more purpose than my calling you an "Apologist" "Mouthpiece" or a "Quisling."
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Agreed. My apologies. So far the vast majority of people I've spoken to that tend to be negative about things usually are either poorly informed, or simply enjoy complaining about the established order. Whether it's a game or not.
Still, I shouldn't assume this to always be the case.
That said, even if I sound dismissive, I always make an effort to not dismiss a valid argument (as far as I manage to perceive one.)
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The second thing I would do is fire Stackpole, Coleman, and the rest of the writing staff. They are clearly unable to write, and even admit as much by saying they wrote themselves into a corner and couldn't figure out how to fix it. Replace them with people who can write.
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Hardly. Only one of them said that. After which he spearheaded the effort to write the 3130 background.
Now whether you or I enjoy that particular background is fairly irrelevant. The fact is that a lot of people do. A fact is that you cannot claim that the new storyline isn't imaginative, creative and diverse.
Unless, of course, you wish to compare it to human history; I'm sure you can find a parallel somewhere. One always can.
What I think the 'wrote in a corner' bit is about is the end of the Clan Invasion, and the end of the FC civil war. Those were some major events, that had been foreshadowed pretty much from the start of BT 15 odd years ago. Is it peculiar that a new major storyline thread is not immediately evident? Is it a failure?
Only if you get stuck in a rut. And obviously, they didn't.
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I would not have jumped ahead 60+ years in the storyline and would instead have picked the end of the FedCom Civil War as the new starting point.
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Of what?
And they did. The Jihad happens pretty much right after it. When it ends, the major events are somewhat more scarce until the HPG breakdown. Which results in a setting they wish to talk about.
Now, the jihad will be covered in time. So what's the big deal?
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It would have made sense for new players to be come in at a common point and would not alienate many older players.
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While many others are not alienated. You cant please everyone.
Also, it makes an equal amount of sense for new players to come in at a completely new point. That way, they can easily choose to leave behind the considerable baggage of all that BT history, or they can choose to embrace it.
Right after the FCCW you do not have that choice.
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I would have kept Word Of Blake, but dumped the retarded Jihad (Now With Nukes!) storyline.
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Highly subjective. Sure, a pre-planned event got escalated somewhat to help get things to the MWDA setting, but now that I've seen some of the behind the scenes stuff, it's amazing how insultingly easy the jihad can be pulled off. I'm looking forward to seeing the discussions start after FM:U.
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I would focus more on expanding the current universe than moving the game forward for a while. Move novels like the Grey Death Trilogy dealing with a smaller unit and fewer like the Warrior Trilogy.
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Ah, now there's a great point.
I think there's always been a bit of a conflict between focussing on major events, or focussing on the minor units. It would seem that the majority of fans tend to prefer the main storyline type approach, but at the same time, the GDL books and stuff like Double Blind is also immensely popular.
The best approach is then to do both.
Now, the advantage of the small units is that you can stick them in pretty much anywhere.
But at the same time, sometimes nothing happens for a few decades. So you still need that jump. 20 year update?
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I'm all for blowing the BattleTech universe to pieces, and even for getting back to the Mechs' are rare idea, but not in the manner that has been presented. It doesn't help when the writers just throw their hands up and proclaim they don't know what to do. It's simple: if they are unable to write the way out of the mess they put the game in, then get rid of them and get someone who can.
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Well, the manner they used is a subjective issue. I can respect you disliking it. At least you're not yelling that it's completely implausible when one simply lacks the evidence one way or the other.
Maybe when they do tell the whole story, you'll enjoy it more. Maybe not.
As for getting rid of the writers, that seems rather hasty. Additionally, it strikes me that it's neigh impossible. BT writers are specialists. Just look at that MWDA novel. Brandnew writer. Established. Recognized as good. Professional. Yet just about everyone agrees that the novel sucked.
And it's not because the writer sucks. It's because BT is large. And unless you have a passion for it, it'd probably too large for just about everyone to take on on short notice.
So you can't just toss your specialists out.
I also feel you're being far to harsh on them, but I guess I can respect an opinion I don't agree with.
Paul
PS If this turns into a lengthy debate, we may wish to consider generating a new thread.
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Jun-2003 14:16 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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Now I'm not yelling that its implausable, I just think it would have started and quickely died out, forcefully and with MUCH less impact on the universe.
Do I think they haneled it poorly? Yes. Look at what OD proposed. A much better senario then what we have to look forward to now.
Do I have anyway to voice my opinion? Yes. Here and by not supporting that version of the universe.
Is my opinion worth a damn? Not really, lets face it. In all reality my opinion is baised and I will be the first to admit not fully informed. I dont like where they took the universe and there for dont follow it. I have made my opinion on what I have heard and read on this site, and a couple others concerning MWDA. Which granted isnt a lot.
Will my opinion change? Maybe. Nothing is set in stone. And when I win the lotto I will spend some time getting completely up to date, till that happens though I will stick with CBT which I think is still a far superior setting than MWDA. I try NOT to be close-minded but hey I'm not perfect and never will be.
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Stinger
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Wait a minute! My highly developed chick sences are Tingeling! - Johnny Barvo
(Edited by chihawk to remove unnessessary lengthy quotes)
[ This Message was edited by: chihawk on 2003-06-09 15:47 ]
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Jun-2003 14:45 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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On 2003-06-09 14:16, Stinger wrote:
I try NOT to be close-minded but hey I'm not perfect and never will be.
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You and everyone else on this planet.
Ah well. I can't begrudge you for not liking a story element. Heck, as a Steel Viper, I can sympatize.
Once the sourcebooks come out, don't sell yourself short by not at least checking them out. You may like what you see after all.
Or not, but then it's an informed choice. =)
Paul
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