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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Major
Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 1611
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 Posted: 21-May-2003 00:33 Post subject: RE: 1st-2nd Succ. War info request |
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I wasn't posting for academic credit and I wasn't researching for a graduate paper. What I was doing was trying to quickly provide the general information asked for since my sourcebooks were sitting on the shelf nearby and the Marik book happened to be the one on top. I didn't refer to every last book in existence because I wasn't about to take all day just to submit a single post.
Besides, that one book I did refer to (going by your post) is one more book than you looked at before knocking my answer and providing your own. It would seem kind of hard to knock my own 10-15 minutes of fast research, reading it out straight from the printed book, when you were saying you had performed no research at all.
And since you just played academic one-upmanship on me (I've had to play that game once before). In your post you also said you don't have all the old sourcebooks in your collection. I do.
While I would have liked a simple apology, it is not required. But let me say that had I been standing on the other side of this misunderstanding and offended someone without meaning to, I would not have hesitated to offer it.
[ This Message was edited by: Gunslinger Patch on 2003-05-21 00:40 ]
_________________
"Those who beat their guns into plows will plow for those with guns..." -Thomas Jefferson
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-May-2003 07:41 Post subject: RE: 1st-2nd Succ. War info request |
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Ruger, What do you mean the Mariks are liars???? It sounds like the Lyran whining has begun again.... And Just when I thought we'd beaten it out of you.... 
Looks like you'll have to start the 12 step program over again...
_________________
Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2094
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| Posted: 21-May-2003 17:35 Post subject: RE: 1st-2nd Succ. War info request |
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Quote:
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On 2003-05-21 00:33, Gunslinger Patch wrote:
Besides, that one book I did refer to (going by your post) is one more book than you looked at before knocking my answer and providing your own. It would seem kind of hard to knock my own 10-15 minutes of fast research, reading it out straight from the printed book, when you were saying you had performed no research at all.
And since you just played academic one-upmanship on me (I've had to play that game once before). In your post you also said you don't have all the old sourcebooks in your collection. I do.
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I do not have a hard copy of the House Marik book...that is not to say that I did not download it from the classicbattletech.com website...
As for the research I have performed...no...I performed next to no research when I posted my original post...nor did I need to, considering I have most of the important facts of the Succession Wars locked in my memory...I may not have total recall, but when it comes to stuff I'm interested in, I come damnably close...just ask AWAD or AlexxKnight...
Plus the fact that I had been discussing some of this recently on both ClassicBattleTech.com and with Warner this past weekend should also count for something...
Ruger
[ This Message was edited by: Ruger on 2003-05-21 17:36 ]
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5788
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-May-2003 17:35 Post subject: RE: 1st-2nd Succ. War info request |
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I'm Glad to be Kurita.
_________________
one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 22-May-2003 07:47 Post subject: RE: 1st-2nd Succ. War info request |
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You?!?!!? You don't speak like a Kurita.... 
_________________
Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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The_Nice_Guy
Capellan Confederation
San-ben-bing
Joined: 19-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 10
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| Posted: 25-May-2003 09:25 Post subject: RE: 1st-2nd Succ. War info request |
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One caveat I might add, since I'm a Wobblie and all.
The loss of House technology from the start of the 2nd SW to its end was also the result of Comstar ROM's efforts to kill off House scientists and researchers(Operations Holy Shroud 1 and 2). With their monopoly on HPG and communications, findng out about where the houses had hidden their most important knowledge personnel was relatively easy.
The Wobbly Guy
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5788
Location: United States
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| Posted: 25-May-2003 16:59 Post subject: RE: 1st-2nd Succ. War info request |
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Quote:
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On 2003-05-22 07:47, Sir Henry wrote:
You?!?!!? You don't speak like a Kurita....
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you should read the fanfic i wrote [going to finish someday] about my Chars father, and the scource of his callsign. not everyone who's kurita is oriental.
_________________
one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Morbo
Capellan Confederation
Shia-ben-bing
Joined: 27-May-2003 00:00
Posts: 5
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| Posted: 27-May-2003 22:27 Post subject: RE: 1st-2nd Succ. War info request |
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Quote:
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On 2003-05-21 17:35, Ruger wrote:
Plus the fact that I had been discussing some of this recently on both ClassicBattleTech.com and with Warner this past weekend should also count for something...
Ruger
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No, it doesn't count for anything. At the risk of being caustic, who cares what Warner says about this subject (or anything else BattleTech)? Sycophants and the "Warner is God of BattleTech" crowd aside (I attribute much of that to Warner's public appearances and Bills' lack thereof), Warner isn't the end all, be all, voice of anything. He isn't the architech of where the game is headed, he isn't line developer, he isn't even a writer (at best, he is a contributor). Warner's opinion means no less or no more than mine on any BattleTech subject. Name-dropping isn't going to help either. (For the record this isn't a snipe at Warner or anyone else. Again, sorry if it sounds harsh, but it's how I see it and I like to call a spade a spade.)
As far as acting like a historian is concerned, it isn't like BattleTech sourcebooks are legitimate primary sources to go back to since it is a fictional universe. Every book is biased, and they aren't even internally consistant and their "facts" are nothing more than a writer's fancy that no one can dispute academically. It certainly doesn't help when what is new is correct and what came before isn't. (Case in point: 13th Royal BattleMech Divison. ComStar's own internal documents don't have a clue what happened to it in the Star League sourcebook, but they suddenly remember it helped to "liberate" Terra in the ComStar sourcebook, another internal document.)
It makes it kind of difficult to conduct a proper historical study when you can't throw away what historians have writen and start over with just the primary sources ya' know...
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2094
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| Posted: 28-May-2003 17:09 Post subject: RE: 1st-2nd Succ. War info request |
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Morbo, did you read what I said? I said, you go through the old sourcebooks and find what is common...
It takes some effort, sure...but often, what's worth doing isn't easy...and that is precisely what is going on now...
Ruger
[ This Message was edited by: Ruger on 2003-05-28 17:50 ]
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 28-May-2003 21:08 Post subject: RE: 1st-2nd Succ. War info request |
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Well, I've been thinking. One of the things that a lot of Old School Battletech players wanted was a Clan-Free world with all that nice modern tech. Some would be happy to see DHS go away as well, but the Clans were always the big bugaboo. And while I tried and tried, it looks as if they're so settled in, now, that it'd be all but impossible to crowbar them away.
So, I started thinking sideways.
What, I asked myself, about the past? Is there a good historical setting for Battletech, with Star League tech, but infighting, where you could find juuuust the right balance? After the 3rd war, you're in 3025 tech. After the second, you aren't much better. But after the first? After the first, some major things are gone, but others are still around. The loss of repair facilities is starting to be felt, mercenaries are on the rise, and you've got some interesting divisions on teh assorted leaders.
So, I'm looking at 2825 as a very nice launchpad. It leaves 5 years before the 2nd war starts, which, on a realtime scale, leaves plenty of time for storytelling on a smaller degree, it's between the two Big Wars, it has teh right technological level and hasn't been written about very much, leaving some flex-space.
So, as a little side-project, I'm thinking about hammering out a 2825 thing, and seeing if it'd fly. More info as I get off my lazy tush and get to typing, but, it could be neat. Now I have to start digging into my history files, to see who all leads which house at this time. Funsies!
-- Old Dog, tail-waggin' typist
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Morbo
Capellan Confederation
Shia-ben-bing
Joined: 27-May-2003 00:00
Posts: 5
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| Posted: 28-May-2003 21:50 Post subject: RE: 1st-2nd Succ. War info request |
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Quote:
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On 2003-05-28 17:09, Ruger wrote:
Morbo, did you read what I said? I said, you go through the old sourcebooks and find what is common...
It takes some effort, sure...but often, what's worth doing isn't easy...and that is precisely what is going on now...
Ruger
[ This Message was edited by: Ruger on 2003-05-28 17:50 ]
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Yes, I read what you wrote. You didn't offer anything like an opposing viewpoint, alternate facts, or anything of the sort. All you did was say "Liar! Liar! Filthy Marik-lover!" (well maybe not in those exact words, but close  ) and then went on to attack the other poster's abilities as a historian. This isn't an academic environment with calls for peer-reviewed papers. It doesn't matter what his qualifications are, or if he follows your perceived ideas of what proper historical methodology cosists of. He shouldn't have to offer up a complete historigraphy or footnoted paper just to come up with a simple timeline.
Secondly, and I can't stress this enough, all the sourcebooks are biased and contradictory, even when written for the same reader (e.g. ComStar). It doesn't help when they are viewed as "secondary historical works" when we can't look at the primary documents used to get the information in the first place. [NOTE: Primary works meaning journals, offical reports, newspaper accounts, memoirs, etc... Secondary meaning any work derived from those primary sources.]
The vaunted sourcebooks differ on many of the very facts, not just the interpretation. Historians don't often argue over documented facts, but rather the interpretation of those facts. And it doesn't help when the authors who write this stuff can disregard what they wrote and make new revised facts.
If you don't mind Ruger, please point out the inaccuracies in Gunslinger Patch's post. Please document the source of your material. Any standardized notation system is acceptable, but Chicago Manual of Style is prefered. Try to keep it out of character if at all possible.
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2094
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| Posted: 28-May-2003 22:04 Post subject: RE: 1st-2nd Succ. War info request |
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Quote:
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On 2003-05-28 21:50, Morbo wrote:
If you don't mind Ruger, please point out the inaccuracies in Gunslinger Patch's post. Please document the source of your material. Any standardized notation system is acceptable, but Chicago Manual of Style is prefered. Try to keep it out of character if at all possible.
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I would do it tonight, but I have to get up in a few hours for work...and it would take at least that long to go over everything that is wrong with that post...perhaps this weekend...
Ruger
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Major
Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
Posts: 1611
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| Posted: 01-Jun-2003 18:59 Post subject: RE: 1st-2nd Succ. War info request |
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You know, Old Dog. When I sooner or later have Saturdays off and I can get a group together again I've always thought I'd do a campaign sometime around the 2nd succession war or so. Mostly 3025 stuff with players forced to scrounge for Star League tech and never finding quite enough of it to go around.
And I've always wondered why we never saw any novels set between the fall of the Star League and 3025. Just flipping through the old house books would have provided plenty of plots for that.
We could have had tales of Combine Samurai trying to deal within themselves with the evil massacres carried out by their mad co-ordinator on Kentares IV. Or the Eridani Light Horse struggling to preserve the SLDF's ideals within their own ranks. Or the Northwind Highlanders losing their homeworld (hey, the Chancellor wasn't crazy back then). Just loads of things that would have made for a good read.
_________________
"Those who beat their guns into plows will plow for those with guns..." -Thomas Jefferson
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Old Dog
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 24-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 299
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| Posted: 04-Jun-2003 17:54 Post subject: RE: 1st-2nd Succ. War info request |
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Mmm, untapped potential. Makes my writer-sense tingle!
While watching cartoons this Saturday, I think it might be time for me to grab all of teh House Books from Classic BT site, and start fishing for plot hooks. The 2825 era *really* is starting to look good, and I need to know what all events were happening within about 10 years on either side. Find out what sorts of people were in command and whatnot.
Might be fun.
-- Old Dog, puppy-yapping
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