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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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 Posted: 18-Sep-2003 18:47 Post subject: XL..... Again |
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I know this has been beaten to death over the years but with an influx of new guys I want to ask the question,
DO you have some sort of formula or system to decide to use XL, or just every Mech gets one? Of course this is IS only, Clan is a no brainer.
I have a simple rules in my home designs, and what I use to rate others.
Light- Move 8/12 or better,
Medium- Move 6/9, max armor and one really big gun
Heavy- I really do not like XL in this class.
Assault- Move 4/6 and loads of guns for all ranges.
I can go into more detail later, just looking for what you gents think.
AWAD- DHS is worse than XL in unbalancing Btech.
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Sep-2003 20:43 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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It's all about purpose and size. And these rules are only in effect since the new Light Engine tech came out, before that, I used XLs much more freely. But so did my opponents, so it evened out.
Lights:
Light BattleMechs get standards or light engines. Light ScoutMechs and fire support can have XLs.
Mediums:
I usually don't consider XLs for anything multi-purpose. Specialty 'Mechs might get it. Scout Hunter-Killers, Fire Support and Flankers might be considered, though I will weigh the options very heavily.
Heavies:
If it moves 5/8, I would prolly test a variant with an XL. Nothing is more annoying than a fast heavy 'Mech. Fire Support 'Mechs also get XLs for better weaponry, and if they are shooting up my support machines (with anything but the occasional pot-shot) then I've already made an error. Heavies get very close scrutiny, and often I will test an XL version and a non-XL version under various circumstances.
Assault:
Sometimes an 80 ton 'Mech going 5/8 is pretty amusing, but for the most part, all assaults I build have Light or Standard Engines. You'd need at least a 4/6 movement curve to be considered. And even then, there are some good assault with that curve who have standard or light engines.
These are all basic guidelines, and I've broken them in the past, and will prolly do so in the future. But I always take them into account.
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"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 24-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 2074
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Sep-2003 23:35 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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I stuff them in just about everything I build mostly lights and ultra lights and I like to squeeze as much speed as possable out of them andstill carry max or near max armour load and enough ordinance to be effective oftain using batterys of ER or Heavy small lasers to get a lot of close range throw weight I have a few designs that use XXLs I use them in the assaults I build to free up weight for more ordanance in that weight class the XL can gain you a lot of tonnage I will oftain pair them with compact gyros to recover the critspace lost to the XL Engine
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Having more fun than a human being should be allowed to have-Rush Limbaugh www.rushlimbaugh.com
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Still crazy after all these years
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Sep-2003 02:17 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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For me it all depends on Armor and weapons load out. When I build I try to build with a purpos in mind for the mech. And then for me it depends on armor and weapons load. I try to keep all of my designs at 90% Armor or better. If I cant get the proper weapons load with Endo and ferro. Than I will drop one of thoes and add a XL. but I try not to use XL's as often. Speed also plays a roll in the design. If I can up the movement at the cost of an XL, then I will do it.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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deathshadow
Draconis Combine
Gunjin
Joined: 28-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 41
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| Posted: 19-Sep-2003 02:36 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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Bottom line for me, is can you build the same 'mech heavier without the XL? If not, put the XL in.
But, if the same config can be fit on a heavier chassis at the same speed less the XL... Why use the XL?
I have a list of 'Mechs that I consider to have XL engines for no good reason.
Arctic Fox. Avatar. Axman. Battle Hawk, Cossack. Ceasar. Cestus. Cougar, Duan Gung. Dart. Emperor. Falcon Hawk, Gunslinger. Komodo. Mandrill. Mauler, Nightstar. Raptor. Snake. Tempest
Every single one of those you can tack 5-10 tons onto and lose the XL.
Light engines aren't much better in a number of cases. TRO '67 is rife with designs that the only thing an improved engine accomplishes is jacking up the cost. Razorback, Blue Flame, the list goes on and on.
Truthfully, I have no qualms about using an XL or light engine should the design warrant it, it's just NONE of the above listed designs need it for any good justifyable reason.
[ This Message was edited by: deathshadow on 2003-09-19 02:40 ]
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and it might have meant a thing or two
if I'd have known the difference.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 19-Sep-2003 03:33 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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Arctic Fox. Avatar. Axman. Battle Hawk, Cossack. Ceasar. Cestus. Cougar, Duan Gung. Dart. Emperor. Falcon Hawk, Gunslinger. Komodo. Mandrill. Mauler, Nightstar. Raptor. Snake. Tempest
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Uhm..... The Dart has a standard engine. But point taken, some of these could do without an XL.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 19-Sep-2003 03:37 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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When designing IS 'mechs, I never, ever use an XL engine. But then, I don't design them often.
Any assault 'mech is more deadly with a standard engine. Those extra, what, up to ten tons, will not make enough difference in fire-power or armour.
Light 'mechs can be made fast enough on a standard engine.
Mediums are more difficulty - I usually go for a fast low-end medium 'mech with a big gun (try a 7/11 40-tonner with a PPC - a bit like the 3025 Cicada variant without MGs and using new tech to gain better armour).
Not really tried all that much with heavys, but, XLs = big no-no!
Different story with Clanners. XLs seem great, especially on heavies. Love how all the original 3050 machines went 5/8!
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1625
Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Sep-2003 20:04 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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When xls first came out I thought they were pretty kewl. Then came the realization that they went out of the fight rather quickly, which wasn't bad, cause the games were faster without those damn cockroach mechs such as the grasshopper.
Now I'm a big fan of the light engine. you can bump up some speed or room to add items and not get KOed after losing a torso.
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deathshadow
Draconis Combine
Gunjin
Joined: 28-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 41
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| Posted: 20-Sep-2003 01:35 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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Ooops, my bad. How did that one get in there...
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Happyness is just a word to me
and it might have meant a thing or two
if I'd have known the difference.
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 20-Sep-2003 12:30 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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[quote]
On 2003-09-19 03:37, jymset wrote:
When designing IS 'mechs, I never, ever use an XL engine. But then, I don't design them often.
[quote]
It is rare for me to even design mechs and not often with XL, but it is something I keep in mind
[quote]
Any assault 'mech is more deadly with a standard engine. Those extra, what, up to ten tons, will not make enough difference in fire-power or armour.
Light 'mechs can be made fast enough on a standard engine.
[quote]
Assaults need to have long life. So XL is more of a liablity, but some specialized may find a use. Lights fast enough? Against Clanners? Nope, once to often I have found 7/11, 8/12 is hurting. Because even at that speed most IS stuff can not engauge to keep those Clanner fast bastards off of the big slow mechs.
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Mediums are more difficulty - I usually go for a fast low-end medium 'mech with a big gun (try a 7/11 40-tonner with a PPC - a bit like the 3025 Cicada variant without MGs and using new tech to gain better armour).
Not really tried all that much with heavys, but, XLs = big no-no!
Different story with Clanners. XLs seem great, especially on heavies. Love how all the original 3050 machines went 5/8!
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O yeah, Clanner Heavy is the backbone and core of those test tube scum. All designs are good and that 5/8 is crucial.
AWAD- Clanner Medium are kind of ehhhh
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 20-Sep-2003 20:22 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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On 2003-09-19 02:36, deathshadow wrote:
Every single one of those you can tack 5-10 tons onto and lose the XL.
Truthfully, I have no qualms about using an XL or light engine should the design warrant it, it's just NONE of the above listed designs need it for any good justifyable reason.
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I think you may be off on some the designs but I will not quibble.
The statement you made about 5-10 tons heavier is the best I have every heard about using XL engines. If you can do it for 5-10 tons heavier, than probably not worth it. I will have to use that as one of the litmus tests.
But the one thing to remember about is the olf 3025 book. Not all designs were good or made sense, so it would fit for a 3055 book. Also look at the auto industry, if it is cool and new, it is slapped onto the car, needed or not.
AWAD- XL on a 3/5? Why?
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5788
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Sep-2003 06:43 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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AWAD- XL on a 3/5? Why?
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two words: military spending
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2093
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| Posted: 21-Sep-2003 09:04 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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Quote:
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On 2003-09-20 20:22, AWAD wrote:
AWAD- XL on a 3/5? Why?
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Well, on a ThunderHawk of the time, you had to have it to mount 3 Inner Sphere Gauss Rifles...you can make it now with a light engine, but to keep up your armor and number of medium lasers, you have to lose your hands...
Ruger
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deathshadow
Draconis Combine
Gunjin
Joined: 28-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 41
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| Posted: 21-Sep-2003 10:05 Post subject: RE: XL..... Again |
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At which point buy a Hollander to put next to it.
_________________
Happyness is just a word to me
and it might have meant a thing or two
if I'd have known the difference.
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deathshadow
Draconis Combine
Gunjin
Joined: 28-Jul-2003 00:00
Posts: 41
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