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Jerol Merket
Kell Hounds
Corporal
Joined: 08-Oct-2003 00:00
Posts: 12
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 Posted: 13-Oct-2003 15:54 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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I feel that I just need to say this. These things are roughly 1000 years ahead of our time. Ahead of our engineering, scientific, and militaristic premiums. In modern times, a mech itself is not that great, but maybe 1000 years in the fuure it is. This is kind of how I see it:
A mech is like a large man running around on a field. He behaves (this is an average of humanoid mechs) much like a normal person does, with his muslces allowing a free range of movement. If he tried to run at a little kid with a supersoaker (christ, I'd get killed for ever syaing a kid or midget with a gun), he's gonna get wet. Unless he is faster and more agile.
Another plus side to the mechs is their proven design of the human body. They are allowed such a degree of motion that they can (given the correct weapon systems) target many different enemies at one. Also, hands and feet. What's the nastiest tank gonna do if you are riding (or sitting) on it? Same thing with flipping it over. There is such a degree of things possible with a mech based on human physiology, that the possibilities are near limitless.
As for structure... find out what could support a 100 ton human being and you have your answer....
Air will probably always rule supreme, unless AA tech gets better (as it is, it is pretty damn lackluster). Also, a mech would probably fare better in urban fighting than a tank would. It doesn't need to fully expose itself to fire, it can knock down buildings with it's hands/feet, or it can just plain step on tanks. (granted that infantry would probably roast both of them, I am mostly comparing mechs and tanks).
As said before, most MBTs carry the best weapon around... that's it aside from light support, but nothing to threaten armor (aside from the main gun). Odds are good that a mech will be focused on more of a multi-purposing task. ONE anti-mech weapon, and then medium stuff for armored vehicles, followed by light munitions for unarmored vehicles and infantry.
I still feel that smaller walkers and protos would be better in this day and age, the Battlemech design itself is ahead of the MBT by a hair. Sure its a big target, but its a big target with more weapons, (hopefully) more armor, that is more versatile in the long run. A mech can engage in hand to hand, while tanks can't (aside from ramming, mechs can physically fight in melee).
....I'm tired....
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Ana nacorach bo-dae dientae. Ana nacorach dieana opborara-a. (Latin for The death shall rise and conquer. The dead shall rule all Earth)
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 13-Oct-2003 16:07 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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The biggest overall driving reason behind the BattleMech is it's ability to combat drop. On a single planet as in Earth today it's value compared to the MBT is not that much lager. But in an empire that spans hundreds of planets the ability to fight in and out of vaccum and drop directly into combat is very appealing.
I would put the second most driving reason behind the BattleMech as the fedual system we see employed in the FASA universe of 3025. BattleMechs are the suits of armor of old and their pilots like the knights and lords of past centuries.
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The JadeDragon
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Slythis
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 09-Aug-2002 00:00
Posts: 712
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| Posted: 13-Oct-2003 16:17 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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The problems with tanks: you penetrate the armor, you cook everyone inside. The tread breaks (or tires wearout/go flat) you're going nowhere. Only turret mounted weapons can fire from side to side and into the rear, if the turret breaks done, you're doomed.
VTOL Problem: You lose a blade, you go down.
Battlemechs:
Why?: 1. Psycological effect (everyone has stated this)
2. With the proper Balancing mechanisms they can go places most machines cannot (again already stated)
3. Something shaped like a human can bring ALL of it's firepower to bear much easier than a tank.
4. Look what American Paratroopers did to the Germans the night before D-day, Tanks could not been droped because theres a fair chance it won't land upright, but a mech on the other hand is humanoid and dropping it would be the same as dropping a human... only on a much larger scale.
My personal opinion is that Battlearmor would be the most effective path to go, all the pluses of infantry with enhanced survivability.
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"It is pleasant, when the winds are high and the seas are rough to watch the stuggles of another from the shore."
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2003 10:38 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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With the current state of our world today I would have to agree that BattleArmor like weapons would be of the most value.
If however in the next several hundred years we have empire spanning hundreds of planets BattleMechs would be an option again.
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The JadeDragon
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Daphne Wilde
Star League Defense Force
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 19-Sep-2003 00:00
Posts: 425
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2003 16:54 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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Interesting thing about the use of battle armor / mechs today.
from what I have been able to see and gather as far as information goes, both would be semi useless in the world we live in , I forget the name of the BT book ( I am SURE somone will remind me and can't go get it becouse I am not home right now.,) but it was the one about Gibson and the Knight Paul. the way that population reacted and the things they were doing seems a close example of what would go on if battle armor and or Mechs were around today, tis true that both can cause lots of damage but they would be self defeating ( unless they killed everybody) 'cuz eventualy the troops and piolets have to come out of thier equipment and interact with the people that are going to kill them at a glance. it's nice to have set piece battles like we keep doing to other peoples militarys but we lose more after the fight is over that during the conquest. mechs and battle armor are not going to work in controling the masses when those same faceless peasents have to be delt with one person at a time.
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Lt.Col.Daphne Wilde
504 Para. 82 Div.
Io
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Slythis
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 09-Aug-2002 00:00
Posts: 712
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2003 18:30 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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the same is true of Tanks, bombers, fighters, ect...
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"It is pleasant, when the winds are high and the seas are rough to watch the stuggles of another from the shore."
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Daphne Wilde
Star League Defense Force
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 19-Sep-2003 00:00
Posts: 425
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2003 18:35 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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Agreed. None are worth much.... 
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Lt.Col.Daphne Wilde
504 Para. 82 Div.
Io
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Jimmy the Tulip
Kell Hounds
Corporal
Joined: 28-Sep-2003 00:00
Posts: 44
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2003 19:47 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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This very topic has been popping up for a long, long time.
100 years ago aircraft were invented. What possible use would they have that a man in a car or on a horse could not achieve? Aircraft were slow and very, very specialised.
100 years ago (or so) the Tank was introduced in combat. It was a slow, ponderous montrosity and it had several weaknesses that were easy to exploit if one knew how.
100 years later these two tools of war are vital if any kind of victory in combat is to be assured. 1000 years from now I think you will find that things have changed even more dramatically than they have over the last 100 years. That's evolution and it affects weapons of war more than nearly anything else mankind has created. Also the more these things evolve the fast the evolution progresses. In 1000 years there will be things that would make our minds boggle, I'm sure. Why shouldn't one of those things be an extremely efficient, 100 ton, humanoid war machine? 
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2003 19:51 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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Body Armor, or protomech armor could possibly work and be very useful in our world.
Our basic unit of force is an infantry man (or squad), and equipment to make them a more effective fighting force is sought after. I would hazard to guess that forms of battlearmor are being researched right now.
A standing, walking Battlemech though would start out with some significant problems.
1st) Such a standing target would be just that, a large target, easy to sight, and most likely plenty easy to hit. There is a reason Tanks and APCs go for a low profile. It makes them difficult to target, and allows them to concentrate their armor on areas that are most likely to be hit.
2nd) Walking machines are not techincally feasable in large scale machines right now. They tend to be far to heavy to maneuver well or easily, and these machines are simple walkers, they do not contain weaponry, or armor.
3rd) The gyro in a 60 ton walking machine would be incredibly huge. Those scooter contain 3 seperate gyros to stabilize them, and they are plenty light. Trying to remember Gyros here, but I think that the larger mass you are trying to stabilize, the higher RPMs the gyro must pull, or the larger mass the Gyro must possess. In either case, that concept in itself would be ugly.
4th) I can't talk about metallurgy as I am an Electrical Designer, but I do remember reading somewhere about large walkers and the idea that you would need metals with a much higher rigidity than steel, due to the forces involved.
But you know?? It makes a hell of a game.
Pin
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"My Blood is not mine to give, it belongs to my Brothers"
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2003 20:14 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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1) the most effective way to get mobile heavy firepower on a planet, no matter what gravity or atmosphere.
2) flexibility, the hands on most mechs would allow them to do things otherwise impossible to any other unit. Clearing debris, with care when needed, after a battle. The ability to go underwater and cross rivers.
3)The myomers are like muscles, you can shoot holes in muscles, and they still work. shoot a hole in a tread, or sprocket and you have serious issues. the ability of the shell/bones to absorb damage and still fight.
For an interstellar army the high end would definately require something like a battlemech to do their job. At the low end, Powered Armor for infantry to take care of atmospere and combat load rerquirements.
Of course if you develop antigravity, the mech becomes too expensive when you can build a horde of Grav Suspension tanks at the same price as a battalion of mechs.
The only real show stopper might be Ground Pressure. Mechs might make tracks like Godzilla did in the recent movie. Mechs could easily end up wading thru soft ground like a man thru snow, not good.
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Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side & a dark side, and strings also lie under it all.
Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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Slythis
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 09-Aug-2002 00:00
Posts: 712
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| Posted: 14-Oct-2003 21:12 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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Pin, all but your first problem are a matter of scientific advancment, the better science gets the more likly thoughs problems are to be solved.
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"It is pleasant, when the winds are high and the seas are rough to watch the stuggles of another from the shore."
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-Oct-2003 11:44 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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Basically this is what I am seeing. In today's world and the next 20 years at least only the Battlearmor concept would have value in our combat system.
However as science advances and exploration grows by leaps and bounds anything including the BattleMech is possible if not even feasible and desireable.
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The JadeDragon
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-Oct-2003 13:19 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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I don't know. I've been trying to think about this very very carefully (at the time I'm writing a ten page paper on nationalism. I'm good at multitasking  ). Anyway, this is sort of what i've come up with.
1) Technological Development: Mechs being used for air drops and such. I don't know. I would say that fighters that can convert between hovering and super sonic kick some butt speed would be more likely, and could secure an LZ for infantry or battle armor or tanks. Armed dropships would be another likely development. Its feasable, cheap [relativily speaking], and effective.
2) Terrain: tanks are good on a wide range of terrain cause their treads disperse weight better. I read that somewhere. Anywho, feet don't disperse weight so well. Battle Mechs I imagine would be very clumsy, no matter how advanced things get, because the reason we work so well is that the connection between our nerves and our command center is moving at the speed of light. But in a human pilot, their would be a hesitation, a delay. Now I read a report recently about monkeys and robotic arms (no joke, I'm serious! They used MONKEYS!), and the monkeys got pretty good at it, but it requird brain implants. I don't trust brain implant tech cause it reminds me of the borg... YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED BY BUBBLES!
3) Historical Presedence: Someone mentioned planes and tanks. Good examples, the problem was that the possibities offered by planes and tanks really could not be performed by horse and infantry. No matter how much you worked at it, you couldn't do it. Planes could move just far to fast, get to good of a view, etc. The advantage was intrinsic in the design. Same with tanks.
Mechs, however, do not offer any advantage that another unit, already in existence does not have. On top of this, I do not think they will be any more versatile then tanks, cause they'd have the same design limitations (in essence) a BattleMech would only have so many cannons missiles etc as it can carry ammunition and an engine large enough to manuver and power the systems necessary to run the gun. The higher power drain from a massive gyro, as well as electircally stimulated pseudo muscle would also be high. I'd say that most battlemechs would probably carry less weaponry then even today's tanks, not to mention tanks of the future (I mean, who wouldn't want a hover tank?! THAT WOULD BE SO COOL!)
Thats it for now. So far this has been an interesting discusion. hopefully it will continue.
Raven!
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Jimmy the Tulip
Kell Hounds
Corporal
Joined: 28-Sep-2003 00:00
Posts: 44
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| Posted: 15-Oct-2003 16:35 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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I was the one who brought up the Historical Precendent and your responces to that are well thought out. My point though was that back then there were many many nay-sayers fo those things. Much more than there was in their favour, it's just that those in favour were the ones in positions to make the decisions about the viability of tanks and planes. General Patton was one of these people and if it weren't for the likes of him and Montgomery the development of the tank might not have gone as far as it has today. Who can tell? The same can be said for the combat aircraft.
Slightly off topic now (sort of). Somone mentioned above about Mechs deploying in hostile environments. I should be familiar with this being a long term BTech player, but can tanks in BTech not be deployed in HE's? If not why not? Seems nuts to me!
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Slythis
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 09-Aug-2002 00:00
Posts: 712
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| Posted: 15-Oct-2003 17:26 Post subject: RE: BattleMechs vs. Other Units |
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Tanks would have a serious problem in low or no G environments.
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