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Havoc~Ronin
Federated Suns
Major
Joined: 13-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 427
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 Posted: 01-Dec-2003 14:12 Post subject: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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For all those who like battling at a distance with LRM'S, this is for you. If you had to choose between the Catapult CPTL-C! and the Crusader CRD-3D, which would you choose. It isn't as simple as it looks, the Catapult having better rear armor and jump jets , yet the Crusader having better frontal armor and more weapons. I prefer the Crusader personally, yet there are those who swear by the Catapult. I'm interested in hearing people's preferences. 
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"Ours is not to question why, ours is just to do...."
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 01-Dec-2003 15:00 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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| Well, both designs have substandard ammo loads for the LRMs, so neither can try to outlast the other at long range, meaning the match will probably degenerate into a close-range brawl. Close in, the Crusader has the advantage in armor, and a slight advantage in weapons, but the Catapult has a big advantage in jump jets and heat sinks. Also, once the LRM ammo runs out, the Catapult doesn't have to worry about ammo explosions, whereas the Crusader still has to worry about the SRM rounds. The Crusader can punch, while the Catapult cannot. Overall, these two designs seem pretty well matched; I'd probably go for the Crusader. Slightly better overall firepower; better armor. I don't see the jump jets being a huge factor. Using them will screw the Catapult as much as the Crusader.
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Dec-2003 16:02 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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I would say Crusader hands down. Although the point about jump jets and ammo explosions are well taken, the ability of the Crusader to punch and its heavy armor is an excellent plus. It will be in better condition after a long range duel to take on the Catapult, and the SRMs will only crit seek the heavily damaged armor of the Catapult, something the Catapult can't do back.
But I have a paper I REALLY must write 
Raven, off to bad paper writing!
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Dec-2003 16:09 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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I am all for the Catapult. The JJs should allow it to gain a better firing nest for a long range duel and/or allow it to have position on the Crusader if things got down to the personal close range stuff.
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Dec-2003 19:01 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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Tricky. You generate some interesting matchups.
I'm in the Catapult camp. Armor is significant, but provided the range is closed after the LRM ammo is gone, the Catapult is in good shape. In fact, since the Crusader will be the only one with ammo left at that point, it's at risk.
Additionally, if you wish to kick, you'll be unable to use the SRMs.
Which restricts you to punches.
The jumpjets are a huge advantage, either in the LRM duel, or up close. Couple of turns worth of lost init's, and your rear armor is gone.
Close, but if you pit 100 CPLT's against 100 CRD's in duels, the CPLT's will win more often than not. Not by a huge margin, but a significant one.
Paul
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Hardware
Clan Ghost Bear
Star Colonel
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 605
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Dec-2003 19:05 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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As a long standing Crusader pilot I'll give it the edge over the Catapult. The heavier armor will put it in a better position when they both run out of LRM rounds and the Crusader has two SRM6s, which will crit seek on the Catapult when things devolve to close range.
Also, the Catapult's Med Lasers are buried in the torso, somewhat diminishing their effectiveness. While the Crusader's MLs and MGs are in the arms, running the risk of blow off its SRMs are in the legs, unlikely to be destroyed without repeatedly stacked hits.
The jump jets could be a factor when things get close and ugly, but I think the Crusader will have the edge.
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1625
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Dec-2003 20:19 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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I too am a big Crusader fan, not quite as much as Hardware though. I would pick the Catapult however, mostly based upon the Jump jets which give it a huge advantage, especially when you begin to overheat and movement points/initiative become critical. ( ask ICER how I love to run in the red!) That combined with the excessive ammo that the Crusader carries.....well, you get my point.
An extremely interesting game is an Archer v. Archer battle, circa 3025. It really puts a players tactics to the test, try it sometime.
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"I have lived my life trying to be a virtuous man. The Dragon admires tenacity, and the code of the samurai upholds it as well." -Minobu Tetsuhara
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Dec-2003 20:23 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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split the difference. The Catapault should go in an atillery/fire lance, where closing with the enemy would not be the mission. Supporting the rest of the company with missiles wopuld be the mission. Punchimg would not be a factor then.
The crusader would fit into a regular line lance, its job would be long range softening up. As ranges close the crit eeking and, finally punches would help in the mop up.
I would say the crusader is more veratile, and go with it for that reason. A mercenary unit needs the flexibility.
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Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 01-Dec-2003 21:23 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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Quote:
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On 2003-12-01 14:12, Havoc~Ronin wrote:
For all those who like battling at a distance with LRM'S, this is for you. If you had to choose between the Catapult CPTL-C! and the Crusader CRD-3D, which would you choose. It isn't as simple as it looks, the Catapult having better rear armor and jump jets , yet the Crusader having better frontal armor and more weapons. I prefer the Crusader personally, yet there are those who swear by the Catapult. I'm interested in hearing people's preferences.
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Like the questions you are asking, add a flare. We often talk big things not platform vs. platform issues here. But I think some people missed the boat or you need to be clear, you are not talking duels but ability or are you talking both? Ability in a unit, and ability in a duel, espically against the other mech or vehicle or aerospace you have identified.
But I am going with the just better model idea. I am going with the Crusader. Yes having just LRM ammo in the torso is asking to go off like a roman candle but it is versitile. Weapons loads for all occastions, hands to boot, and good armor. The Catapult is actually more deadly but seems toget punted in lance battles, I think it assumes 4 ML and JJs make it a bad ass it I see many get slagged.
AWAD- Plus the Crusader is just cool looking
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Dec-2003 22:18 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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Probably the catapult, because if I recall correctly the Crusader has a very limited supply of ammo and crappy weapon placement.
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Gangrene
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2003 00:58 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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The Thunderbolt TDR-5S would win 
But seriously, I think the Catapult has a good chance of winning that fight. The Crusader is badly crippled when it comes to heat sinks. Just moving and firing both LRMs builds up heat. Firing the short-range guns and moving will cost you a MP next round, and it only gets worse if you keep it up.
The Cat's jump jets will be useful when the two close in for the kill, and since you mentioned firing arcs... The Crusader's SRMs are leg mounted, they use the front firing arc and can't fire if it takes partial cover. There will be all too many rounds when the CRD can only fire one arm's worth of guns at the Catapult. It will hurt.
Nothing is certain in mech combat, but IMO the Cat has a better chance of winning. Fire power, heat sinks, mobility, those are the three rules here.
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2003 11:02 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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You know the JJs can be a huge factor in a game, but that is more or less terrain dependant. Put both machines out on the open field and the Crusader will have the armor that that Catapult does not.
However, the Catapult has one other huge factor is it's advantage that will always play for it no matter what, heat sinks. The Catapult can gain a much better movement to firing ratio than the old Crusader.
The Crusader might have more armor but it is definately going to need it as the Catapult will put out more firepower and probably have the better position.
The real question is, do you move and shoot or do you stand and redline it?
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The JadeDragon
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Havoc~Ronin
Federated Suns
Major
Joined: 13-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 427
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2003 16:22 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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Well, so far the Crusader appears to be more popular from firm believers in the design to tentative supporters. The Catapult camp does have strong convincing arguments though. Currently, the count is Crusader 7 / Catapult 4.
Just to clarify things, my question is one of model dueling and not how they would fair against non-mech wepons platforms. That would definitely put a different spin on the answers. However, I will save that for later. We are getting very interesting perspectives here.
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"Ours is not to question why, ours is just to do...."
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2003 16:57 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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*Rallies the Catapult fans and hands out signs that read such as*
"Down with Crusaders"
"Crusaders, a historic relegious event, not a BattleMech"
"Catapults Rule be a noble too"
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The JadeDragon
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2003 17:15 Post subject: RE: Catapult vs Crusader.... |
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CRUSADER!! CRUSADER!! He's our man.
I will have to side with the Crusader. No need to add more arguments here. I would have to agree with the previous posts.
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Festina Lente!
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