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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 915
Location: Spain
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 Posted: 17-Feb-2004 14:49 Post subject: Heads |
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Old Dog idea and Gangrene's comments made me think.
Heads are the weakest point in a 'Mech and I understand the people that want to get rid of them alltogether. Why expose the pilot in a glorified cupola perched on top of the 'Mech?
Well, the solution is using torso mounted cockpits, but the implementantion of Max Tech needs some tweaking, but that will be later in this thread.
Why put heads on 'Mechs? Well, I think heads are a case of making virtue out of necessity, because the engine, the gyro and other systems take up most of the space available in the torso, and mainly to keep the 'Mechwarrior away from the heat and radiation of the engine, a consideration that also applies to the electronics of the sensors and computers and to give the pilot more survival chances in case the machine is destroyed, though that it's seemingly paradoxical.
Also, there's the argument that a head mounted cockpit gives the pilot better visibility and situational awareness. That may seem odd, after all , the targetting and tracking is done by sensors that are longer ranged and more precise than the human eye, remote cameras can provide all the views needed. In fact, why bother with viewports at all.
The answer is that there's a limited number of cameras you can mount on a 'Mech, and considering the huge volume of fire that is exchanged in the battlefields of the Inner Sphere ( dozens of proyectiles and scores of missiles) plus energy beams, chances are that statistically a good number of cameras in a 'Mech are shot away , to see they must be exposed, and if they are exposed, they can be damaged or destroyed easily by even superficial damage to the armor, shrapnel, knocked out by nearby blasts, or most of the time being burned out by a stray laser beam that would do little more than burn the paint but enough to damage the optics.
So having viewports it's a neccessary backup. If you get a shot through it... well, if you are blind you are going to die anyway.
Anyway, viewports are not really neccessary for gunnery but for pilotin nothing beats the Mark I eyeballs to get a good look of where you are putting the feet of your 'Mech. It doesn't seem you can pilot a 'Mech via a TV screen, and anyway we are back to the problem of what happens when a camera is destroyed.
Thus I have demonstrated that heads, far from being there because it makes a 'Mech cool, (though the psychological effect of a giant humanoid resemblance cannot be ignored) do have a reason of existence. They are simply an engineering solution with benefits and tradeoffs.
Well, to be honest is the easiest, lowest cost solution to the problem, not the most efficient one, remember that the most advanced 'Mechs like the Marauder and Catapult depart from the humanoid form.
Now I will get to the rules implementation. Problem is that heads are too vulnerable (not so much in level 1 play) and that the 9 point armor limit is annoying for good math.
The 9 point limit is consistent with FASA limit on 10 points for the rear hatches of troop carriers, the view ports are weak spots and mean armor can get over a certain limit to reflect that. But I still don't like it, giving some heavily armored 'Mechs the option to mount 10 points it's a patch, but it can be done better.
I don't agree with Old Dog solution because it doesn't solve anything... to get rid of one exception you would have to add another circle of internal structure to every 'Mech and cross off one armor point in many.
On theoretical grounds it can be pointed out that since a head is roughly spherical , a higher relative weight of armor can be supported by the internal estructure (same thing why Dropships are usually spheroid in shape)
Here's the key. Isn't that odd that the Stinger head structure can mount the same amount of armor as an Atlas? The latter should be able to bear higher loads.
So the relationship internal structure points /max armor should be
Lights x 2 Max Head Armor : 6 points
Mediums x 3 Max Head Armor : 9 points
Heavies x 4: Max Head Armor : 12 points
Assaults x 5: Max Head Armor : 15 points
So this avoids teh annoying "David and Goliath syndrome" where you have your Assault 'Mech dropped by some lucky shot. Those 'Mechs are built to take a lot of punishment and it stands to reason that the pilot would be protected against all weapons but the heaviest one (in other words, Gauss rifle proof, but there's no defense against an AC/20)
What do you think gentlemen?
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Memento audare semper
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-Feb-2004 15:15 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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*Oafman stands up and applauds.*
I would begin bargaining with my current opponent for these house rules if I did not get so many lucky head shots my self. 
But seriously, I like the break down. It only stands to reason that a 20 ton fast gnat of a mech should have significantly less armor available to them than the 100 ton big @$$ assaults. I know I have lost my fair share of big guys to lucky shots.
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Festina Lente!
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 17-Feb-2004 15:30 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Heavy and assault units have so many other advantages over lights that increasing head armor just seems like going overboard to me. Also, in 3025, only the three most powerful weapons in the game can penetrate fully a armored cockpit in one shot (AC/10, PPC, and AC/20) and only the AC/20 can decapitate a 'mech in one shot, barring a critical hit. Combine this with the fact that many canon light 'mechs do not carry maximum head armor, and heavier units already have an advantage.
mud, who says if it ain't broke, don't fix it
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Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 915
Location: Spain
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| Posted: 17-Feb-2004 15:31 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Well, glad to hear that
Now a couple details I left out. The break down should be by tonnage , not 'Mech class, but I haven't Max Tech at hand to give a listing.
And another thing, Head Turrets, for those 'Mechs that go with a torso mounted cockpit and have one, would use the max armor value of the next higher tonnage class. Why? It stands to reason that a turret is more compact and can support heavier armor than a hollow head that has empty space in the inside for the pilot.
How does this change existing designs? Not much really.
20 tonners , maximum 6 armor, few can have even that.
Most 'Mechs, 9 points maximum. So what? They already had that or less.
The improvement is on heavy end machines that now can redistribute some armor , even if it's just 1 point to avoid dying from PPC hits.
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Memento audare semper
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Feb-2004 06:33 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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I'd like to see the armor relation ship to stay the same for every weight. I want the amount to increase. With the increase of Range and Damage or the weapons, there should be an increase in armor tech also.
Say increase the IS of the head to 6 or 8 and keep the multiple of three for the armor. Giving the head about 18 to 20 points of armor. The Golden BB will return to being Golden not just overpowering.
As to Viewports, I'd like to see them in the rear and to the side as well. Allow the electronically blind Warrior to see by using his eyes.
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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js
Federated Suns
Sergeant-Major
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 125
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| Posted: 18-Feb-2004 10:35 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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I'd prefer to increase the number of internal structure points for the different weight classes and keep the 3 armor points per structure point multiplier. I also wouldn't be quite so extreme in differentiating the weight classes.
e.g.
Light 3xIS = 9 armor
Medium 3xIS = 9 armor
Heavy 4xIS = 12 armor
Assault 4xIS = 12 armor
Unfortunately, I also think that light and medium 'Mechs also ought to get some advantage out of this, I'm just not sure what. (Perhaps benefits when firing on multiple targets?)
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Feb-2004 12:24 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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You could always make the amount of armor on the head a percentage of the weight or Ton of Armor. Say 2.5% or 3% of the weight...
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Feb-2004 20:20 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Your rules are okay. They seem more of a stop-gap measure than a true fix. In my opinion heads should just be gotten rid of.
I don't agree with your reasoning on the value of the head. You state that the main reason for a head is the viewports, so that in the case of instrument failure the pilot can still pilot the mech. However, in order for full instrument failure to occur either the head has to be breached and 2 sensor hits occur or the head is destroyed altogether. The latter is much more likely and will result in the death of the pilot, so the use of viewports will virtually never be a factor. Also, the mech already has to rely on a heavy amount of sensor input in order to walk. I doubt most mechs offer a view of the mech's feet other than that offered by a sensor, and pilots do not have the time to watch each mech's step. The result is that total sensor loss will still be completely debilitating whether the mech has viewports or not. While this last point might not play itself out in the rules, it is logical and can be scratched up as designer oversight, IMO.
What a removed cockpit location does offer is extra safety for the pilot. If you imagine a situation where the mech's head contains a fancy sensor suite that provides all pertinent information to a remote pilot, the loss of the head may take the mech out of the fight but it doesn't automatically mean the pilot is dead. This gives experienced pilots a greater chance to survive, which historically advanced armies have wanted.
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Gangrene
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 18-Feb-2004 21:02 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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| HEADS ARE GREAT!!! Forget all of the engineering mumbo-jumbo. It's great that 'mechs, even the biggest, have a vulnerable spot. A single stroke at the right time can alter the situation drastically. It also keeps the heavies and assaults from totally dominating; even an Atlas can be dropped with a single shot.
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 18-Feb-2004 21:12 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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I concur with that statement, but today even the little Hollander can drop the Atlas at boards length away. Does not even have to have a big run of luck like an IS PPC, head, then crit, then the right amount or location. In the old days you had to be double lucky or real close. Thus this made big assualts even more deadly. To me, just take a bunch of mediums with Gauss or clan ER PPC and sit at range. Heads are kind of the balancing act of the game.
AWAD- Nothing like dying by taking 6 different hits to the head and it is not blown off
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Feb-2004 21:48 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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I agree with Mud and AWAD. Also, a mech's head IS safer than torso mounted cockpits, safer from heat, safer because you can eject. Remeber, Torso mounted cockpits can't eject, although I did make a custom eq that allowed it...under normal rules they can't. Also, pilots do need to use their eyes a lot, try reading a lot of the fiction. Don't underestimate the power of being able to see w/out using the sensors. Especially the phsycological side of it. Which is anothe thing with not being able to eject from the torso cockpit, it has a negative phsycological effect on a pilot...unless the pilot is already legally insane, then it may not.
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 00:32 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Heads are lame. They make no sense and take away from the game, IMO. A 1 in 36 chance of killing a mech every time its hit with a gauss rifle does not make for good game mechanics.
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Gangrene
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 00:37 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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Quote:
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On 2004-02-18 21:48, ralgith wrote:
I agree with Mud and AWAD. Also, a mech's head IS safer than torso mounted cockpits, safer from heat, safer because you can eject. Remeber, Torso mounted cockpits can't eject, although I did make a custom eq that allowed it...under normal rules they can't.
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Then the people in charge should make better rules regarding torso-mounted cockpits.
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Also, pilots do need to use their eyes a lot, try reading a lot of the fiction.
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And if its in Btech fiction then it must be well thought-out (that's sarcasm).
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Gangrene
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 06:29 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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We know G... 
Without a Head, how can you do a 'Boot to the Head'?????
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Feb-2004 11:20 Post subject: RE: Heads |
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I am with Vampire and Gangrene on this. In the game I'm working on there is no way to do something like that. Heavy units dominate the field because they are heavy units and pack a lot of punch. Life sucks if you take only lights, but thats your problem, not mine.
When an Atlas walks on the field units with ER PPCs and Gauss Rifles should run to the hills, not go "Let all fire 36 times and that baby will fall! WOOHOO!" Thats ridiculous.
Raven!
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