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Karagin
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 Posted: 26-Mar-2002 15:21 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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As asked I think I have found a missed Matched Battle via BV:
In the BattlePack there is a scenario that has two Dragoon mechs taking on a lances of Kurtia mechs:
Kurtia force:
DRG-N Dragon
CP-10-Z Cyclops
CPLT-C1 Catapult
TBT-5N Trebuchet
All warriors 5/4 for skills.
Total BV:3,946
Dragoons:
HOP-4B Hoplite
WLF-1 Wolfhound
All warriors 2/1
Total BV: 1,700
Is this a mismatch?
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
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chihawk
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2002 15:47 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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Depends entirely on the victory conditions...if it's "last mech standing" then it is not an even battle (which is what the BV shows also)
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Karagin
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2002 16:05 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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Quote:
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On 2002-03-26 15:47, chihawk wrote:
Depends entirely on the victory conditions...if it's "last mech standing" then it is not an even battle (which is what the BV shows also)
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But the victory conditons don't in any way change the fact that is a mismatch on BV part. Now if the Victory conditions did alter the BV to balance it out then I would say the BV system is one good way to go, but since it doesn't the system is messed up...
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
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chihawk
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2002 16:20 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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Bullshit.
Let me say it again in case you misunderstand. Bullshit.
Not every scenario is based on "last mech standing". So victory conditions are very important, and if the victory conditions are reachable for both sides based on that BV then that BV is fine.
But of course you don't mention what the victory conditions for both sides are, not what context that scenario was written in. And until you do that you're just wasting time.
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Mordel
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2002 16:26 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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Like chihawk said in a not so eloquent way. Sometimes the sides are supposed to be mismatched. It's the purpose of the scenario.
My challenge for you was to look through the books and find a matchup of 'mechs where the victory condition is last 'mech standing. Base it on BV and we'll determine if that matchup is not fair.
Don't look in scenario books or anything else where things are grouped into units. Find them on your own. I can gaurantee every one you find will be even.
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Karagin
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2002 18:35 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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Hang on here you two. I was asked to find one that had a mismatched BV basing, I did that, now you two are telling me that there are other factors that need to be added in, YET the BV system doesn't take that in to account so HOW can those change the facts here that the BV is the problem?
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
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Karagin
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2002 18:38 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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Quote:
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On 2002-03-26 16:20, chihawk wrote:
Bullshit.
Let me say it again in case you misunderstand. Bullshit.
Not every scenario is based on "last mech standing". So victory conditions are very important, and if the victory conditions are reachable for both sides based on that BV then that BV is fine.
But of course you don't mention what the victory conditions for both sides are, not what context that scenario was written in. And until you do that you're just wasting time.
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You asked for then by God you got it:
Victory conditions:
The scenario ends when all units one side are destruyed.
The attacker wins a decisive victory by destroying all of the defending units. He cannot win a Maraginal Victory.
The defender whens a Decisive Victory by destorying all of the attacking units. He can win a Maraginal Victory by taking out 3.
SO this one is a kill everything and sort it out at the end game. So take that Bullshit and stick in your hat and think on it.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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chihawk
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2002 19:23 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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The BV system doesn't take that into account because it's not supposed to.
BV makes battle equal based on victory conditions. PERIOD.
And I notice your victory conditions missed one vital ingredient....what's considered a draw? Every FASA published scenario has "draw" on the chart somewhere. So what's a draw on that chart? I'm betting it's the defender has to destroy one ot two mechs, and I think that's easily accomplished with an above average pilot using those 2 mechs.
So even if they do lose both the mechs getting a couple "in trade" doesn't look that difficult and would probably constitue a draw.
So sling your bullshit elsewhere.
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Karagin
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2002 19:31 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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Quote:
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On 2002-03-26 19:23, chihawk wrote:
The BV system doesn't take that into account because it's not supposed to.
BV makes battle equal based on victory conditions. PERIOD.
And I notice your victory conditions missed one vital ingredient....what's considered a draw? Every FASA published scenario has "draw" on the chart somewhere. So what's a draw on that chart? I'm betting it's the defender has to destroy one ot two mechs, and I think that's easily accomplished with an above average pilot using those 2 mechs.
So even if they do lose both the mechs getting a couple "in trade" doesn't look that difficult and would probably constitue a draw.
So sling your bullshit elsewhere.
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This secnario is out the 4th War BattlePack, and nowhere in the write on this battle did I see a draw an out come...so keep tossing you BS around it may atually stick to something...since you DON'T believe me, here is the page numbers you can check it yourself. Pages 31-33 Gates of Hell.
So let me know if you find a draw in that scenario...and I am off to get my hipwaders since it's getting deep in here.
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Karagin
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chihawk
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2002 19:45 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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Thanks for posting where that scenario is from, as now everyone can read the intro and see that the defender is supposed to be crushed.
And I do see that there is no draw, which makes one of a very few that don't. Doesn't change anything else though...in the context of the scenario the defender is supposed to lose. So the BV of the units is skewed on purpose, which actually proves the point Mordel and I are making.
You're right, it's getting deep in here. You want to try posting a scenario where the sides are supposed to have an even chance now?
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Karagin
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2002 20:30 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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I posted one that meet the idea of unbalanced BV...end of story.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
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chihawk
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2002 20:40 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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Which when examined proves the opposite POV.
You're correct, end of story.
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Karagin
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2002 21:18 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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No it proved my point and yes it's the end of the story...
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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chihawk
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2002 21:20 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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If you think you proved your point by using that example it explains many things...
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Vagabond
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| Posted: 26-Mar-2002 21:38 Post subject: Is this a Mismatch? |
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2 minute penalty, both sides.
excessive us of post containing one or more flames or offensive content.
please take your penalties in the box.
--vagabond points with this bionic right arm.--
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