|
|
|
Mordel's Bar & Grill |
|
  |
» |
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 915
Location: Spain
|
 Posted: 31-May-2004 10:20 Post subject: Successor States Orders of Battle 3025 |
  |
|
Bugger CBT, I have decided to post in this board.
I have been researching lately the orders of battle of the Successor States in 3025 because to my knowledge, nobody has done it before. Nobody has examined how are the forces deployed, how many conventional regiments there are, etc.
I am making some interesting findings, but I've ran into a problem with the Capellan Confederation troop listings.
House Liao sourcebook mentions only the Home Guard wich is neither militia nor 2nd line troops, but the backbone of defense, with 120 regiments of 1 battallion of armor and 2 of mobile infantry.
Thus the Home Guard amounts to about
40 armor regiments and
80 infantry.
Then there's the militia, every inhabited world in the Confederation ( all 200 of them) maintains one Militia regiment of 2 Battallions. 50% of them field a company of armor.
Grouping this into full 3 battallion regiments, militia forces roughly amount to
10 armored regiments
120 infantry regiments
Okey.Somebody forgot something because the total number, 250 regiments, it's too low even for the Capellan Confederation. Moreover, adding up all the conventional regiments present in the battles described in the NAIS Atlas of the 4th Succession War, it turns out that even if all the Home Guard and militia regiments had been engaged, there wouldn't be left any conventional units in the rest of the Confederation, not to mention Tikonov and St Ives.
Something is seriously wrong with one or all of the following
a) Confederation conventional strenght
b) Deployment (in Tikonov alone there are 80 regiments, yeah, in a single planet there's 1/3 of the entire conventional troops of the CC), while in a backwater planet as Menkalinan there are 30 regiments , entire areas are undefended.
c) The battle writeups.
If taken those figures at face value, two questions arise: Why the Fed Suns didn't occupy without opposition the rest of the CC, St Ives and Tikonov? Or better yet, why it hadn't conquered the Capellans bloody ages ago?
Well, the explanations are several. The 4SW was an scripted victory, so given the page limit of the Atlas, most of the battles had to be glossed over as "glorious" Davion victories in the absence of opposition, and the author blew the troop figures out of his rear jumpjet. In fact, only a couple battles are examined in detail.
Actually, a detailed description of military operations with accurate force listings of a realistic 4SW would take hundreds of pages, and encompass several years of fighting, not months, and as it's seen when you start scratching the surface, the outcome of the war was sheer fantasy with no relation to what would have likely happened.
The NAIS atlas is pure bovine excrement, the author(s) was obviously making up things on the go. I would not be surprised that if you added the conventional Davion regiments there are more than should be.
Why this screw up? Well, for once, Petersen (author of Kurita, Steiner and Davion SBs) couldn't be bothered to write about conventional forces strengths except in the vaguest of manners. House Liao and House Marik sourcebooks were the only ones to give precise figures (among other useful details like 'Mech yearly production or units fighting condition in %), only in the Davion sourcebook, the last one, is given any indication of conventional troops (and I see here the hand of C.R. Green , House Marik writer) and that only because combined arms are supposedly to be so important for Fed Suns success. Even given that, the only thing you get is the composition formula for an RCT, a note of wich units are RCTs, and notes indicating variations from the formula. No total strength summary is given, you have to take notes and calculate it yourself. But I digress.
Back to House Liao, trouble is the author screwed up with conventional force listings. 120 regiments of Home Guard plus 100 of militia means the Confederation would have been conquered ages ago as with that ratio it would be outnumbered by a ratio of 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 by Marik or Davion, in either border, and that if each House just allocated 50% of its strength to the Capellan border!
It just doesn't match with the ratios of conventional troops to 'Mechs gleaned from accounts of battles of the 3rd Succession War and with the numbers given in Marik and Davion SBs ( Steiner and Kurita are a blank in this area, but a good estimate can be drawn from the 4SW NAIS atlas, about the only thing of value the book has)
In the Field Manual : CapCon, at least somebody noticed this void and tried to fill it.
There are now a number of armor units attached to 'Mech regiments. Good. troubleis that average strength is one battallion of armor per regiment, wich leads to the paradoxical conclusion that there are more 'Mechs than tanks in the CC, wich goes against all evidence. Tanks are more numerous that 'Mechs everywhere even if tank factories are too in a sorry shape.
As for infantry, it's now acknowledged that there are indeed line conventional units, other than the Home Guard.
Line regiment are divided into support and defender units, that are garrison troops, "supplementing the local militia" when neccessary.
Ok, it's safe to assume that these aren't "the same dogs with different collars", the defender units man the fortifications and garrison installations, so it's not another name form the militia.
And line regiment supports are the offensive infantry, either airmobile or mechanized or commandos."Most support infantry are attached directly to Battlemech regiments"
So we have the following classification of conventional troops, in order of quality
1) Line support regiments: for offensive action
2) Home Guard. first line of defense and local reserves.
(a very close second, not only defensive in nature but tasked with counterattacks)
3) Line garrison regiments: tied to key places
(though technically regulars and above the Home Guard, their mission is more passive and their capabilities more restricted, but they are still line troops, simply specialized in defense)
4) State Militia: of wich probably the armored units are the only combat capable, though it must be admitted that Capellan militia, from the description of the SB, seem to be a cut above the cannon fodder militia employed by other Houses for basically police work.
and I would add
5) Local militias: policemen, reservists, paramilitaries, peasant levies.. wich would match the common "militia" definition.
Ok, only problem I have is the low level of armor units present. 40 rgts of the HG plus the 15 regiments attached to 'Mech units (assuming 1 Bn per 'Mech rgt) it's too low.
If the militia has armor companies, then I think that at the very least the garrison line units should have the same proportion of armored vehicles, that is 1 armor company per infantry regiment.
So adding numbers up the conventional army of the confederation should be around 400 regiments of wich
100 Armored regiments ( 40 of them Home Guard, 15 attached to 'Mech regiments, and the rest independent commands assigned to garrisons or grouped for offensive action)
200 combat Infantry regiments (Home Guard , Line regiments, mechanized, jump, airborne, commandos, combat engineers..etc)
100 static defense Infantry regiments (foot infantry and militia, but combat capable)
Do you think these proportions are reasonable? The ratio conventional troops /'Mechs is very high, but not because the former are huge, but because the Capcon has so few 'Mechs, and after all, it's often mentioned how much does it rely on conventional forces to replace 'Mechs.
The armor forces outnumber 'Mechs 2 to 1, wich is reasonable considering the ratio is higher in other houses and the Capellans produce quite a good number of armored vehicles and the Capellan tankers are reputed to be the finest in the Sphere.
I don't think I'm off the mark assuming 35 extra regiments of armor belonging to the line forces.
In conclusion, despite the addition of 200 regiments to cover for the discrepancies and unaccounted units, the Capcon is still outnumbered 2 to 1 on both borders, in a pessimistic estimate. Counting reserves and local militias, the Capcon could scrounge up to 500 regiments, so the proportions would be more likely 3 to 2
The Capellan Armed Forces have the following forces approximately
50 'Mech regiments (including mercenaries
100 armor regiments (2:1)
300-400 infantry regiments (6:1 to 8:1)
For comparison purposes, the Free Worlds League has a huge army of 700 regiments of conventional troops (all types included)
Interestingly, in the partial breakdown of troop listings, the proportion tanks / 'Mechs is 2 to 1.
It seems tanks are not as numerous as it's commonly thought, wich is confirmed by the scarcity of vehicle factories.
The infantry ratio is about 9:1
The Federated Suns has 400 frontline conventional regiments (excluding planetary militias wich according to description are not battle worthy)
140 armor regiments
250 infantry regiments
So the Federated Suns army is surprisingly small, but very well equipped, and geared towards the offensive. The key of the Fed Suns successess seems to be, more than anything else, that they have lots of 'Mechs and tanks,.
On second thought, they emply the highest numbers of mercenaries, regular units being 78 regiments
so the proportion goes up to
almost 2:1 for armor
and 3:1 for infantry (5:1 or higher if you take into account the planetary guards)
What do you think, do my estimates about the CAF sound reasonable?
With these ratios and a troop count from the 4SW NAIS I think I can give an educated guess at the size of the Lyran and Combine armies.
PS: Bear in mind that these numbers account only for the combat units, the "sabers" and "bayonets" in the field, not all the support and rear echelon troops.
_________________
Memento audare semper
|
|
| Back to top |
  
|
Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 915
Location: Spain
|
| Posted: 31-May-2004 12:36 Post subject: RE: Successor States Orders of Battle 3025 |
|
|
Regarding the number of Capellan regiments, on reviewing my notes, I had overlooked 2 more armor and 3 infantry regiments at Sarna, plus the regiments that remained in the Tikonov Free Republic, being this 18 armor regiments and 36 infantry (notice that the ratio is consistent throughout)
So if you add up all the forces listed in the battles in the NAIS Atlas, it turns out that the Capellans had 280 armor and infantry regiments of the line (excluding militia) wich confirms the 300 figure I proposed. At the very least, there should be at least another 20 line regiments left in the remainder of the Confederation and St Ives, ( assuming the worst case scenario of all line units having been thrown into the fight) plus a hundred militia regiments. (107 worlds in the CC unoccupied zone alone)
So extrapolating, I'd bump up the estimate of the CAF strenght to 600 regiments
of wich
Capellan Armor Corps (adding up Line, Home Guard, and Militia)
120 armor regiments (3:1 ratio to 'Mechs)
40 Home Guard
40 Armor Corps (independent regiments and reserves, maneuver force)
15 Line Support regiments (assigned to 'Mech regiments)
15 Line Defender regiments (garrisons, same ratio of 1 company / regiment of the militia,
10 Militia regiments ( light armored companies assigned to Militia forces)
Combat infantry units ( Line Support & Home Guard mechanized, airborne, jump regiments, plus combat engineers, commandos and marines)
240 regiments (6:1 ratio to 'Mechs)
80 Home Guard
160 Line Support (they "make up the bulk of the CCAF combat troops")
Static defense infantry units (Line Defense and Militia)
100 Line Defender garrison units ( of 200 star systems, my guess is that only 10% (20) are important enough to raise 5 regiments eachof garrison troops armed with antivehicle weaponry and the proportion should be 50% of the militia strength)
140 Militia regiments (one short regiment for planet, 210 rgts total, 2 battallions each = 420 bns, divided by 3, 140 full regiments)
So the total strength is 500 regiments, 360 if you discount the militia as it lacks antiarmor weapons. Adding up the regiments engaged and those in Tikonov, gives a figure of 280.
So there would be 80 armor and infantry regiments split between what was left of the Confederation and St Ives.
[ This Message was edited by: Vampire on 2004-05-31 14:37 ]
_________________
Memento audare semper
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 915
Location: Spain
|
| Posted: 31-May-2004 14:45 Post subject: RE: Successor States Orders of Battle 3025 |
|
|
It comes as a relative surprise how professional is the Confederate army and how small is the proportion of the militia, given the common belief that the conventional forces of the Successor States are hordes of poorly armed cannon fodder conscripts.
It must be considered that the militia regiments exist as a cadre in peacetime, in wartime if a mobilization was decreed, via conscription and calling reservists, the militia could be doubled in size (each peacetime battallion would provide the cadres for a regiment) allowing the CAF to field 600 regiments.
The small size of the militaries shouldn't mislead you into thinking they are professional armies. Actually what you see here is the combat units, the services, support and other non-line troops could easily double or triple the combat troops. No, the small size is due to the scarcity of interstellar transport, and the insufficient production of armored vehicles and modern weapons capable of damaging 'Mech and vehicle armor.
Stuff like portable lasers, towed autocannons, missile launchers and gatling guns..etc. It's not enough with a few rifles and handheld rocket launchers.
And more than production, the limiting factor is once again transportation. Is no use producing weapons if you can't get them to the frontlines.
Another factor that limits large armies is budget. The Successor Lords in their ability(or lack of it) to get income from taxes resemble more medieval monarchs than a modern, centralized taxation bureacracy.
So keeping 2 to 3 million men in uniform in the payroll is going to be quite a expense, even if soldiers are always poorly paid. So even if they wanted, a fully professional army would be too expensive. Money is better spent in hiring mercenaries.
Specialists, NCOs and the elite units such as commandos or jump infantry would be made up by professionals. The rear echelon jobs too, for people that want to do a career in the military and avoid being shot up. But the bulk of the rank and file are conscripts that serve varying time from 2 or 3 years in the line units (or "for the duration" if at war) , to the "weekend warriors" of militia units in interior worlds far from the border.
_________________
Memento audare semper
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
|
| Posted: 01-Jun-2004 04:32 Post subject: RE: Successor States Orders of Battle 3025 |
|
|
The large grops of undefended worlds are actually a part of the Capellan Defense. The Capellans have always had a small military, that is why they lost so many world throughout the succession wars. It's present size however enables the Capellan military to react very quickly to any incursions by enemy forces. They concetrate their forces on key worlds that are one jump from many of their worlds. Thus if one system is invaded, the militia holds them up while sending for reinforcements. Reinforcements arrive in force and drive the attackers off. This has been the way they have set their military since the middle of the 3rd succession war.
-Edit-
The Capellan Confederation has always fielded a large number of conventional forces because of it's relatively weak industrial base.
[ This Message was edited by: Seraph on 2004-06-01 04:34 ]
_________________
If ignorance is bliss, then why are you so miserable?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 915
Location: Spain
|
| Posted: 02-Jun-2004 12:42 Post subject: RE: Successor States Orders of Battle 3025 |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-06-01 04:32, Seraph wrote:
The large grops of undefended worlds are actually a part of the Capellan Defense
|
|
Is more a matter of making virtue out of neccessity, actually if you plot out the deployment of Battlemech regiments in the map, you might be surprised to see all the 'Mech regiments (and by association, the bulk of the conventional forces) deployed all along the border, with the interior planets being undefended.
Quote:
| The Capellans have always had a small military, that is why they lost so many world throughout the succession wars.
|
|
Well, not so small, it's just that the League and the FedSuns had a larger industrial base, the losses were due to slow attrition rather than being outnumbered.
Quote:
| It's present size however enables the Capellan military to react very quickly to any incursions by enemy forces.
|
|
I would add that the Confederation is the only state that deploys in something of a defense in depth and follows a elastic defense instead of the border linear defense used by the others.
Quote:
|
The Capellan Confederation has always fielded a large number of conventional forces because of it's relatively weak industrial base.
|
|
Well, trouble is that a weak industrial base also makes difficult to produce large numbers of armored vehicles and weapons, so it would be more precise to say that the Confederation resorts to conventional vehicles to conserve its precious and scarce Battlemech assets.
_________________
Memento audare semper
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 03-Jun-2004 12:06 Post subject: RE: Successor States Orders of Battle 3025 |
|
|
BattleTech has always been about the BattleMechs...very little has been devoted to the conventional side of things. 1) Being that Battlemechs are the focus 2) The numbers are so large as to be not worth ones time.
So basically pull out whatever you want and it can be so.
_________________
The JadeDragon
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
|
| Posted: 03-Jun-2004 14:39 Post subject: RE: Successor States Orders of Battle 3025 |
|
|
Should I mention where most of the BT stats in the books are pulled out of? 
_________________
Festina Lente!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Kiris65
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 17-Dec-2003 00:00
Posts: 371
Location: Panama
|
| Posted: 03-Jun-2004 16:36 Post subject: RE: Successor States Orders of Battle 3025 |
|
|
I was checking out the Mechwarrior Darkage, and it seems to me that the focus is more on conventional forces (including armored infantry).
True that the mech is still King of the battlefield, but those converted industrial mechs seem lame in comparison with the monsters of the 3025-67 era.
sorry to have gone off-topic a little bit.
_________________
Anata no gosenzo sama ni kao o awase rare masuka! - (Get ready to meet your ashamed ancestors!)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 915
Location: Spain
|
| Posted: 03-Jun-2004 17:51 Post subject: RE: Successor States Orders of Battle 3025 |
|
|
Quote:
|
On 2004-06-03 12:06, Jade_Dragon wrote:
BattleTech has always been about the BattleMechs..
|
|
Well, then why were CityTech, Aerotech, Battleforce and Battletroops done ? 
Seriously.. if you play only 'Mech vs 'Mech engagements you are missing a lot of fun. Any serious campaign will make you face different kind of targets... err, enemies that is!
Quote:
|
very little has been devoted to the conventional side of things.
|
|
Actually if you read Inner Sphere stories, most ground campaigns are fought with tanks and infantry with Battlemechs being part of a team. The weapon of decision, but not the only one.
Quote:
| 2) The numbers are so large as to be not worth ones time. |
|
Well, the numbers aren't so large, and it's worth *my* time, you ungrateful little...
Quote:
|
So basically pull out whatever you want and it can be so.
|
|
Ahem. The info is there. Is scarce but my research uncovered it. And now I can provide you with hard figures with a minimum of guesses
I think this information is valuable because many people are interested in the strategic aspects, and in the big picture. Knowing the size of the House militaries and their deployment dispels a lot of misconceptions.
_________________
Memento audare semper
|
|
| Back to top |
|
-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
|
| Posted: 04-Jun-2004 10:42 Post subject: RE: Successor States Orders of Battle 3025 |
|
|
What I'd personally like to know is how much interstellar lift capacity do each of the states have. 'mechs are largely the arm of decision because they pack the most punch into the smallest amount of cargo space.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 915
Location: Spain
|
| Posted: 04-Jun-2004 13:14 Post subject: RE: Successor States Orders of Battle 3025 |
|
|
I'm on it, the data is scarce but I can give you a picture, just give me some time and I have to do some consultations.
_________________
Memento audare semper
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
|
| Posted: 05-Jun-2004 05:19 Post subject: RE: Successor States Orders of Battle 3025 |
|
|
I'd really like to know if I just imagined reading something like the following:
"The total number of operational Jumpships in the Inner Sphere 3025 is smaller than the fleet of the largest civilian shipping company at the height of the Star League."
_________________
A tree fall in the forest, and no one is around, and it hits a mime. Does anyone care?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 915
Location: Spain
|
| Posted: 05-Jun-2004 06:05 Post subject: RE: Successor States Orders of Battle 3025 |
|
|
Sadly it's probably true,
Comstar Intelligence Summary - FB60 (Dropships & Jumpships) gives 2,000 Jumpships and 25,000 Dropships in the Inner Sphere.
The Dropship tonnage doesn't count that you can't move around much bigger loads the same way iceships work (several jumpships that move an ice asteroid) , by using large cargo haulers, basically a tug and large shipping containers sort of like the Nostromo
Thus there's a trickle of interstellar trade and shipping going on, and most, but not all military units have Dropship transport, though most conventional troops are planet bound. So there maybe shortages of Dropships but the main bottleneck is in Jumpship availability.
_________________
Memento audare semper
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 915
Location: Spain
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Vampire
Free Worlds League
Lieutenant Colonel
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 915
Location: Spain
|
| Posted: 06-Jun-2004 18:04 Post subject: RE: Successor States Orders of Battle 3025 |
|
|
Q: In your troop estimates, donm't forget that the private security of corporations in the CC are frequently c-opted by CCAF. Another likely source for troops would be the non-mech regiment each noble is allowed.
I purposefully omitted such types of troops. I've kept to available data and kept guessing at a minimum. I purposely take conservative estimates for Capellan troops in order not to be accused of having a bias.
All those forces you mention could be mobilized indeed, and makes it plausible enough reaching the 120 mark for armored regiments, wich are the most important units. Line infantry is for dressing and militia is only good for occupation duties or facing other infantry.
By a curious coincidence, the number of regiments I give for frontline forces is the same as the total battallions figure given in the House Liao sourcebook. We can imagine the author made a typo and wanted to say "Home Guard regiments consist 124 out of 363")
I think I have challenged with facts some assumptions: that the Capellan Confederation is not as weak as it's portrayed, and that in conventional troops the Successor States are much more evenly balanced than it's thought.
Who would have thought that the line regiments of the Confederation and the Suns are about the same size? Who would have imagined that the Free Worlds League has such a large conventional army? (even if most of it is infantry, is pretty impressive)
I have started with tanks and infantry because it's uncharted territory, but I have examined the 'Mech regiments too, and there are surprises there too.
I did this research because I wanted to wargame a 4th Succession War that was more plausible and fitting with was written in the sourcebooks than the canon one, but I think my findings will be of interest to those that wanted to do the same, want to see the big picture, and to inspire other Evil Overlords aspiring to interstellar conquest 
[ This Message was edited by: Vampire on 2004-06-06 18:06 ]
_________________
Memento audare semper
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| |
» |
All times are GMT-05:00 |
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
|
|
|
|
|
