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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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Joined: 03-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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 Posted: 28-Jun-2004 12:39 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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We could probably ramble on for 6 months on this topic. It seems to me just from listening to replies, that lots of different people play it lots of different ways. Such is the way with the game as it is described in the rulebooks. there is so much left open for interpretation.
Expecting people to play by the "missiles are slower than lasers" approach is fine and dandy but isn't realistic. I happen to be stupid and don't know missiles are slower than lasers (not really, but I've played with people who may not know), so I don't know what order to roll in.
As Horhiro states, because the rules state that all damage is resolved "simultaneously", then that is exactly what it means. Everything happens simultaneously. That AC/20 hits the RT at the EXACT SAME TIME those 2 medium lasers are hitting the RA. So as the AC/20 is ripping the torso off, the lasers are still doing damage to the arm (as it is falling, or however you want to think of it).
Just because you roll in a certain order doesn't mean you should reap the benefits. Like he already said, people reap the rules by rolling location on the ERPPC and then the LB-20X because of crit potentials. This has always been allowed simply because there is nothing that says you can't do it this way. But why allow more raping of the system?
All damage is applied, and then the results of the damage is applied. So I hit the RA 3 times, 2 times going internal. I roll the crits now. if i roll a 12 on the first crit, the arm is gone and the 2nd crit is essentially null and void. I don't roll the 12 immediately after I determine a crit, thereby causing the last laser to hit the torso. Players "usually" roll crits as the hits are taken for simplicity sake. I don't want to keep track of what locations have crit rolls to be made (especially if my 'mech looks like swiss cheese).
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1657
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Jun-2004 14:31 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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here! here!
This is one of those phases that have many places open for house rules. I am now in my 3rd circle of BT players and am playing under my 3rd set of firing phase rules.
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 671
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 28-Jun-2004 15:03 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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Yay! I'll second that, i always assumed the pilot selected the weapons he wanted to use and pressed the trigger, firing a beta-strike or alpha-strike (a beta being my version of firing a few weapons), So if the medium laser hits the arm and the AC20 takes off the torso. Then the arm still takes the damage, this is important to see if the arm takes criticals in this last hit. because discrediting the laser could miss out on some major weapon damage which is important during campaigns.
Although i have never been sure how ammo explosions work? I assumed the arm was still classed as attached when the ammo exploded.
Actually it would be a cool sight, a arm flying off a mech before exploding in a ball of flame, spectacular at night. 
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5792
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Jun-2004 15:12 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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Players "usually" roll crits as the hits are taken for simplicity sake. I don't want to keep track of what locations have crit rolls to be made (especially if my 'mech looks like swiss cheese).
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i make this simple by placing a tally mark on the record sheet next to the locations name to remind me of the # of possible crits i need to roll. works great 4 me.
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 28-Jun-2004 15:32 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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I have always figured that when an ammo bin exploded in a side torso and the damage was more than the front/rear armor and strusture could stand then it was destroyed and the arm was removed from the body in whatever fashion I deemed appropriate to the group I was running. Sometimes I would have it just fall off, other times I would have it cartwheel to the adjacent hex. I had a few small dowel rods I painted to represent blown off limbs as my brother had a penchant for clubs and hatchets.
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Jun-2004 17:23 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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Yeah we usually use the tally mark system then apply crits at the end of the fire phase and before the physical phase, but we also play campaigns where salvage is important. so if the left arm is hit by 2 med lasers then both crits are for the right arm, period. Because if we win the field that arm will go for salvage, parting out for cash. They only time we transfer crits is when all fo the internal structure is destroyed in the location. So day that the 2 med lasers hit the arm and the second destroyed all of the remaning internal structure then the Torso would take the Crit rolls as there is nothing left in the arm to destroy anyway.
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 671
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 29-Jun-2004 02:06 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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The rules books are definatley to vague, these rules must lead to some heated debates in tournament games, I got into one a while back about the movement of jumpjets. Someone decided that you can use Jump jets to move like a walking mech (change direction).
Argh!
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Jun-2004 05:06 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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On 2004-06-29 02:06, Wanallo wrote:
The rules books are definatley to vague, these rules must lead to some heated debates in tournament games, I got into one a while back about the movement of jumpjets. Someone decided that you can use Jump jets to move like a walking mech (change direction).
Argh!
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The rules for jump jets are clear--point A to point B only.
I'd have smacked that idiot with a wet noodle at least until he stopped enjoying it.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Jun-2004 06:14 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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On 2004-06-29 05:06, chihawk wrote:
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On 2004-06-29 02:06, Wanallo wrote:
The rules books are definatley to vague, these rules must lead to some heated debates in tournament games, I got into one a while back about the movement of jumpjets. Someone decided that you can use Jump jets to move like a walking mech (change direction).
Argh!
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And you didn't get tired first???? You must be in good shape... 
The rules for jump jets are clear--point A to point B only.
I'd have smacked that idiot with a wet noodle at least until he stopped enjoying it.
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 08-Jul-2004 18:46 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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Huhhhh, Every convention in every town has been all hits are simo, so if the arm is blown off, due to a 12 on crit, but still has structure left, and a redidual shot hits the arm (in the same fire phase), the arm structure soaks up the damage before going to a torso. It does make it a little more complex to track crits in bog convention battles but that is the way it is played.
What about crits, they no longer carry over?
AWAD- Shaking his head
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 08-Jul-2004 18:49 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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Method #2, that is what I was talking about. In a few friends vs friends, easy, in 10 stangers vs 10 strangers each running 2 mechs, hard. That is what I think Randall was thinking.
AWAD- Did the big Taurian Battle at Origins, and that was the problem
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Warner
Clan Nova Cat
Oathmaster
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 175
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| Posted: 09-Jul-2004 06:40 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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On 2004-07-08 18:46, AWAD wrote:
Huhhhh, Every convention in every town has been all hits are simo, so if the arm is blown off, due to a 12 on crit, but still has structure left, and a redidual shot hits the arm (in the same fire phase), the arm structure soaks up the damage before going to a torso. It does make it a little more complex to track crits in bog convention battles but that is the way it is played.
What about crits, they no longer carry over?
AWAD- Shaking his head
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Here's the answer:
Quote:
| pg35 BMR-R wrote:
RECORDING DAMAGE
Follow the step-by-step procedure outlined in Damage Resolution below to determine the effects of damage.
Torso Destruction
If a BattleMech's right or left torso has all of its internal structure destroyed, the corresponding arm (in the case of Four-legged (quad) mechs, the corresponding front leg) is blown off immediately and can sustain no further damage (see BattleMech Critical Hit Effects, p37). The corresponding leg is not damaged. If the center torso is destroyed, the entire unit is destroyed (see Destroying a Unit, p 39) |
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Arm is gone and suffers no damage.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8081
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Jul-2004 07:40 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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Quote:
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On 2004-07-09 06:40, Warner wrote:
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On 2004-07-08 18:46, AWAD wrote:
Huhhhh, Every convention in every town has been all hits are simo, so if the arm is blown off, due to a 12 on crit, but still has structure left, and a redidual shot hits the arm (in the same fire phase), the arm structure soaks up the damage before going to a torso. It does make it a little more complex to track crits in bog convention battles but that is the way it is played.
What about crits, they no longer carry over?
AWAD- Shaking his head
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Here's the answer:
Quote:
| pg35 BMR-R wrote:
RECORDING DAMAGE
Follow the step-by-step procedure outlined in Damage Resolution below to determine the effects of damage.
Torso Destruction
If a BattleMech's right or left torso has all of its internal structure destroyed, the corresponding arm (in the case of Four-legged (quad) mechs, the corresponding front leg) is blown off immediately and can sustain no further damage (see BattleMech Critical Hit Effects, p37). The corresponding leg is not damaged. If the center torso is destroyed, the entire unit is destroyed (see Destroying a Unit, p 39) |
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Arm is gone and suffers no damage.
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Over on HMP the discussion took an interesting turn...
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Storm
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 278
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Jul-2004 09:04 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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Chihawk, I actually tried to reply to this last week from my parent's place, but for some reason it kept telling me I wasn't logged in. Wierd.
Anyway, If all damage happens simultaneously, it is possible for a torso to be blown away at the same time as the arm receives a hit or two as well.
As I understand it, if the torso is gone, the arm is gone as well, and any damage that would have hit the arm goes into the torso or center torso.
As far as I understand the Compendium, anyway.
Storm
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Horhiro
Draconis Combine
Samurai
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1625
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Jul-2004 19:04 Post subject: RE: Torso destruction |
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Yes Warner, that is what I also posted earlier. Unfortunately it leads to the SNAFU that I describe later in the same post , which dictates IMHO why it needs to be corrected.
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