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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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 Posted: 16-Apr-2003 09:49 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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Idiots...for that chunk of bucks it should last at least 7.
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The JadeDragon
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GeoAvanti
Federated Suns
Sergeant-Major
Joined: 07-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 126
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| Posted: 16-Apr-2003 12:54 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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Damn straight. If I spend 20 bucks to get an Elite M1 Marksman Tank. I'm gonna make sure that that lil gem hammers into the enemy mechs. Not the other way around. Same goes for my Katsu Moriyama Crimson Hawk 
(Of course, the LE M1 goes for 100+ :X )
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Survivor of 4th Succession War, Clan Invasion, Battle of Tukkayid, Smoke Jaguar Trial of Annihilation, Jade Falcon Incursion, Fed-Com Civil War, and more Solaris VII matches than you can count. Do you REALLY want to get on my bad side?
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Delusion
Kell Hounds
MechWarrior
Joined: 14-Jul-2004 00:00
Posts: 6
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| Posted: 15-Jul-2004 04:58 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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Newbie here, be gentle...
IMVHO, what Btech needs is a rebirth. Just like the phoenix that shynes all the brighter after crumbling to dust, a gaming system might definately get a new lease on life from a newer, revised edition. However, it has to be done right, or that ember bird will never again be anything more than ash...
Take D&D for example. The overly complex system and out-date mathematical model were something that kept both me and a lot of people away from it for a very long time. Since the arrival of the 3rd eddition, however... Get the picture? And D&Ds 3rd eddition is an important precedence for one more reason - we can see from it, how something that may be called an entirely new system serves play better than any overhaul or simple tweaking. If nothing else, creating a new system, keeping only the halmarks of previous editions(Stats, classes and some basic magic concepts in D&D, heat, locations, missile fire, etc in BT) without being bothered than the rest helps one concentrate on the most important task - ensuring that the 'feel' of the game lives on. Sure, the 3rd ed of D&D raised a lot of moans, but it helped the game get out of what felt like the stagnance Btech seems to be bogged in.
So, to rehash in brief - a new system, lots of new books.
Pre-painted, pre-assembled, cheap minis and good marketing are also thing I hope to see in the future.
Hope, as they say, dies last. 
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...in darkness I was walking,
and destruction lay around me,
from a fight I could not win.
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
Administrator
Joined: 03-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 6085
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-Jul-2004 10:42 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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Wow... you're really reading back into the old threads, aren't you? 
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Mordel Blacknight - Site Administrator
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Col. Dwight Chandra
Lewis' Executioners
C.O., Alpha Co.
Joined: 15-Aug-2002 00:00
Posts: 170
Location: United States
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| Posted: 15-Jul-2004 11:46 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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Wow, this is quite the thread! I am going to comment on a few points.
First, CO_17th: Way back you asked if anyone had used BF2 for large-scale engagements. Yep, I have done it in campaign play. When I run a campaign, I like to have all units on-planet known and accounted for (even Non-player units). Typically I use BF2 to resolve large (Bn on Bn-level and up) battles and only when they involve non-player units
Second, I was at a Con called Havoc recently, and a few guys were doing what they called "Computer-assisted gaming" Maybe I've been under a rock, but it was news to me. THey weren't playing BT -it was another miniatures game system, but basically the deal is that you play the game on table-top just like normal, but you have a laptop programmed with a bunch of macros that resolve everything for you. THe players plot their movement and firing solutions,...the GM presses a few buttons and tells the player what the results of combat were for that turn. I saw a navel battle involving tens of ships, with each ship having many guns, being played at a rate of about 3 or 4 minutes per turn!
Lastly, I think you could simplify BT and keep the spirit of the game. How about the following suggestions (please be kind...these are "half-baked" ideas that I am blurting out with little in the way of calculations):
1. Still use record sheets and minis
2. Mech have fewer locations (like current protomechs) --maybe get rid of side torsos, and count "legs" as a single location.
3. Mech have fewer armor points (an atlas may have 6 pts in the torso, a javelin maybe only 2
4. Weapons are classified into high, medium, or low damage weapons, doing 3, 2, or 1 pt of damage, respectively
5. Fewer weapons (maybe, Lg laser, Sm laser, LRM, SRM (note, no different size racks), and maybe one uber-weapon like a PPC-thingy
6. No # of missiles hit roll
7. either no or a very simple heat system (so there might be only two categories of heat staus: cool and elevated)
8. maybe you could asume that all weapons target-lock as a single unit, either they hit or don't hit
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Delusion
Kell Hounds
MechWarrior
Joined: 14-Jul-2004 00:00
Posts: 6
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| Posted: 16-Jul-2004 02:59 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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Reading back into oldies indeed... But it is not as if this topic is any less alive today...
But to argue a constantly present tendency...
IMO, there is little need to simplify Btech as much, especialy if it is going to take away some of the halmarks... In my limited experience, Basic Btech is simple enough for mostly everything - if simplicity is so craved, why not play it instead of using the so-called Advanced Rules?
And, comparing the missile-hits roll with a simple damage roll from mostly any game out there... it doesn't add that much complexity. You may just decide to assign all hits to a single location(though that may increse the lethality of missile weapons).
As previously mentioned in this thread, linking weapons together is a bad idea. Why? Well, take a look at damage ratings. It is always better to carry a multitude of light weapons, instead of just some really big ones. The trade-off normally is that the small ones disperse damage all over your hostiles(location hit roll is separate), while the big ones help for a mighty, concentrated punch(well able to disable a location just after several shots, or even one, with lighter targets). By linking weapons together, you basicaly receive a hard-punching heavy gun that is usualy cheaper, lighter and generates less heat than heavier counterparts(and may stand on equal grounds in regard to damage, or just trade range for damage).
A link-fire option may be included as level 3 equipment but otherwise it's just too... hm, well, something...
As for my own suggestion, it's a little out of the canon, and I hope I won't be anathemized for it. Here goes - ditch the random hit location roll. Replace it with an aimed shot modifier table - a person proficient in mathematics(I've spotted some about), could easily craft a modifier table that would be balanced enough. This optional change would detract from the time otherwise spent rolling dice, however, it would complicate rules a little further, and force people into thinking a little more. Also, combat would be a little less random.
Targeting computers, which otherwise enable you to make targeted shots, would just serve to eliminate some of the penalties associated with hitting hard-to-get locations.
This may also open a new tactical dilema - do you shoot to disable your foe swiftly by aiming at easy to target locations, or do you target less central locations, hoping to just cripple the hostile mech, and leave him intact for salvage? Or maybe you just hope for a lucky break and continuosly aim head-shots, even though the chances for a hit are very slim?
For added complexity, one could even devise a rule wether misses just miss entirely, or hit a different section... but wait, the purpose was to detract from complexity, not add to it...
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...in darkness I was walking,
and destruction lay around me,
from a fight I could not win.
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DarkAdder
Clan Star Adder
Star Commander
Joined: 10-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 604
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| Posted: 16-Jul-2004 07:02 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation |
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Actually, when you look at it, there is a simpler form of battletech. A 'battletech lite', if you will. Its the Mechwarrior clicky game from wizkids. Those of you who have it would probably agree, and those who dont...well, get a look at it sometime. Just about all of the randomness has been taken out. In the clicky game, if you roll a certain number, you get a critical hit and do an extra click of damage. Whee. You get a critical hit in battletech, youre going to break something, dammit! Dont get me totally wrong. The game still demands strategic and tactical thinking, but all of the zest of the original game is gone. Heat management is almost a joke. Your ammo doesnt cook off and blow half your mech into confetti, you just take a click of damage.
While the MW:DA game is fun, I just feel that its oversimplified the game. Instead of a game of chess, youre playing rock-paper-scissors.
I agree that maps would be an interesting way to go. The magnetic modular terrain suggested earlier would make for several challanging maps, but keeping all the pieces would be hellacious. Mostly, the terrain would clump together in storage, and you would end up peeling half the lump away to find a particular chunk. Still, If someone released it, I would buy it.
Expanding the MW3 RPG would also be a good investment. I still have just about all of the MW2 RPG stuff thats out there, and with a little work, I think I can revamp it for MW3 play. But what then? Taking ideas from the books would get old, fast. Plus, you would have some bright spark catch on to what youre doing. "I know this mission!" they would say. "The GM got the idea from this book, this page, that paragraph." And your hard work goes up in smoke.
Sorry about the rambling, guys. Staying up late with a kid whos got the flu does stuff to you, that and my own version of the common cold demanded lots of medication today, so Im a little loopy right now. 
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Storm
Draconis Combine
Chu-i
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 278
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Jul-2004 09:15 Post subject: Btech stagnation: Someone mentioned a cure |
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A couple of weeks ago, someone mentioned that the rules needed a major overhaul.
Well . . . . that's what would prevent the stagnation. Take 20 years of experience with the rules (something few other games have), and overhaul the game.
Games Workshop does it on a yearly basis, releases horrendously expensive updates, and people eat it up.
Soooooo. . . . . if the Brits can do it, why not the Americans?
Storm
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Storm  "The More that thou sweatest and swearest in training, the less thou bleedest and diest in combat."--Dick Marcinko
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Feral
ComStar
Sergeant
Joined: 25-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 107
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| Posted: 16-Jul-2004 09:59 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation: Someone mentioned a cure |
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Well as I said before I think the following little "enhancements" will really speed up the game
#1. Have all weapons in a location linked. Linked for the to-hit roll, not linked for the location. This only makes sense for targetting purposes.
#2. Eliminate the Right and Left torsos. When you think about the way a humanoid is constructed the right and left torso are just tiny little bits. It serves no tactical purpose other than allowing someone to hit someone's leg with a brutal hit and have the damage transfer to the left/right torso and take out the torso AND the arm at the same time ... which if you think about what that would look like on a human ... would mean the center torso would have to go as well. Nope ... do away with it and just add more crits and more armor/structure on the center.
#3. With less locations you can make a much better hit chart. Something like 2 - crit, 3/4 - leg, 5 - arm, 6-8 torso, 9 - arm, 10/11 - leg, 12 - head. The current hit chart needs help as the center torso nearly never gets hit proportional to how much armor it has and the arms get mauled.
#4. I think the missile chart needs to go. It would be quicker and easier to use your to-hit roll to determine how many missles hit. Say if you roll your target then you get base missiles. If you beat it by 1 you get 1/3. If you beat it by 2 you get 2/3. If you beat it by 3 or greater you get full missiles. The missile chart is just cumbersome. Just make all of your missile weapons fire in multiples of 3 and have each 1/3rd hit a single location. So an LRM 6 would hit at most 3 locations for 2. An LRM 18 would hit at most 3 locations of 6. An LRM 30 could hit 3 locations of 10. This will eliminate the whole 4 LRM5s being better than a single LRM20 as you get more devesation to single locations that way.
#5. Seriously think about eliminating weapons like LBX's and SRMs ... things that will hit lots of locations. Its just a lot more rolling and hit allocation. If you just make SRMs into truly short range but more bang/buck LRMs that would be fine. There's no elegant solution for the LBX though. Its just a lot of rolling.
#6. Rework some of the weapons ... spend a lot of time trying to keep most of the weapons useful. Right now AC2, AC5, and even AC10's are all but useless and the AC20 isn't worth it with weapons like Gauss rifles or improved versions of the AC kicking around.
#7. Speed up the movement phase somehow. I haven't thought about this one enough yet but I've got something cooking.
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Jul-2004 13:03 Post subject: RE: Btech stagnation: Someone mentioned a cure |
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Wow, you guys really went grave-digging for this one.
I agree with most of your suggestions. I especially liked #5, although I think the weapons could stay if their application was properly changed.
I wish somebody at FanPro would listen.
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2004-07-16 14:18 ]
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Gangrene
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Jul-2004 13:11 Post subject: oh boy, DA again |
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Quote:
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On 2004-07-16 07:02, DarkAdder wrote:
Actually, when you look at it, there is a simpler form of battletech. A 'battletech lite', if you will. Its the Mechwarrior clicky game from wizkids. |
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Yes, I know. I've heard this game exclaimed whenever I mention making a simpler Battletech, but . . .
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While the MW:DA game is fun, I just feel that its oversimplified the game. Instead of a game of chess, youre playing rock-paper-scissors.
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EXACTLY!!!!!!
Both chess and MWDA have simpler rules sets than Btech, yet one has lots of depth and is the game of masters, and the other is played by little kids. A game does not need to have extremely complex rules to have lots of depth, and chess proves it. Those of us who request a "simplified" Battletech want to see a simplification of the more arduous tasks, not a simplification of the tactics.
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Gangrene
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-Mud
ex-Jade Falcon
Bounty Hunter
Joined: 04-Nov-2003 00:00
Posts: 1082
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| Posted: 16-Jul-2004 14:19 Post subject: Called Shots |
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I've wanted to introduce a called-shot table for a long long time. First, it makes no sense that I can't aim at a specific part of something as large as a battlemech. I did it all the time playing Mechwarrior video games (leg shots were the best...knock the legs out and take the salvage). Second, as long as you make the to-hit numbers high enough, it shouldn't unbalance the game. Here's some proposals.
Head +6
Torso Locations +4
Legs\Arms+3
If you only miss a called shot by one or two, you still hit, but have to roll on the table normally. Otherwise you miss. Obviously, you can't shoot at a target if doing so pushes the target number over 12, so to get a called shot at the head, you need to be shooting at a fairly easy target. Called shots cannot be made with Ultra AC firing at double rate, LB-X cluster rounds, or any kind of SRM, LRM or MRM, including Streaks, nor with any sort of artillery nor with fighters. VTOLs can launch called shots however.
The only real problem comes from targeting computers, especially when paired with pulse lasers. Change pulse lasers to the cluster-shot model if you're going to use called shots, otherwise you'll have munchkins launching nothing but called head shots.
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Erenon
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Sergeant
Joined: 04-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 976
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 16-Jul-2004 21:18 Post subject: RE: Called Shots |
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I personally think that the first step to take would be automation. Granted not everyone can afford to do so, but a palm or java programme that would perform the calculations could save a lot of time. Granted you no longer roll dice.. but the programme would be handling that.
(don't tell me about winblows programmes, i ain't interested.)
As for revising the rules, what about something in between CBT and BF2? not too sure how that could be done though..
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"My job is to keep the majority of people in this country alive. That's it. If fifty-one percent eat a meal tomorrow and forty-nine percent don't, I've done my job." - The Beast (AKA The President), Transmetropolitan
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DarkAdder
Clan Star Adder
Star Commander
Joined: 10-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 604
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| Posted: 16-Jul-2004 22:05 Post subject: RE: Called Shots |
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Interesting concept, but how far would you go with it? I mean, would the doodad just give you a random number, or would it do the full nine?
i.e.
Your Attack Roll: 10.
Versus
Your Attack Roll: 12
Hit Location: Right Torso
# of Missiles Hit (LRM 10): 7
Critical Hit: No.
It would be a long way to go, and youre up a creek if your batteries die.....
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Erenon
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Sergeant
Joined: 04-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 976
Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 16-Jul-2004 22:36 Post subject: RE: Called Shots |
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Quote:
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On 2004-07-16 22:05, DarkAdder wrote:
Interesting concept, but how far would you go with it? I mean, would the doodad just give you a random number, or would it do the full nine?
i.e.
Your Attack Roll: 10.
Versus
Your Attack Roll: 12
Hit Location: Right Torso
# of Missiles Hit (LRM 10): 7
Critical Hit: No.
It would be a long way to go, and youre up a creek if your batteries die.....
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True, but the Palm's have prety long lifespans. just remember to charge before playing
I would the whole nine yards. You just input the relevant data, select the weapons and press the button. You'll still have to do the recording yourself, but having on the hit rolls, number of misiles and locations done for you would save a heck of a lot of time.
Another idea would be to use it on handphones... they are more common then palms. I believe it is possible to write an application for the java enabled phones to do something similar.
An example for firing would be.
a) input your movement type (0 for nothing, 1 for walk, 2 for run and 3 for jump.
b) input number of spaces opponent moved. (enter 99 for immobile).
c) number of light woods
d) number of heavy woods
e) partial cover (1 for no, 2 for yes)
f) number of smoke hexes
.... etc etc..
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"My job is to keep the majority of people in this country alive. That's it. If fifty-one percent eat a meal tomorrow and forty-nine percent don't, I've done my job." - The Beast (AKA The President), Transmetropolitan
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