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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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 Posted: 02-Dec-2004 02:22 Post subject: Revisiting the original 14 |
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Ok, I'm posting this instead of ranting on how the newer TROs (3060 and later), while really pretty cool, were bereft of any sould compared to the earlier ones. No! I won't waste your time with that!
Instead, mud's Marauder vs Warhammer and the ensuing question on the Crusader's efficiency, has made me look back onto the original 14. Is there a hierarchy? Which ones do we like, and why?
This is the ranking of this website's TRO, as of December 2nd:
14 Wasp 2.12
13 Stinger 2.61
12 Wolverine 2.79
10 Griffin 2.94
10 Warhammer 2.94
09 Rifleman 3.17
08 Crusader 3.28
07 Phoenix Hawk 3.38
06 Shadowhawk 3.45
05 Marauder 3.50
04 Archer 3.65
03 Battlemaster 3.80
02 Locust 4.10
01 Thunderbolt 4.39
Now, this is rather interesting. Especially the Warhammer's poor placement. But please, spill the beans, what is your own ranking? And why? Bear in mind that I am considering only the stock designs in all of this, NOT the variants. Yes, we all know that everyone loves the Marik Wolverines best. And that the P-Hawk D is a superior front-line fighter. And that the Liao variant of the Stinger is one of the coolest 20-tonners...... No, this is about the common base design!
jymset, desperately seeking attention (and also thinking that you can never talk too much about these wonderful designs).
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2004 03:01 Post subject: RE: Revisiting the original 14 |
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My own ranking:
Splitting these into groups, I'd get four categories: the ones that I love fiercely and irrationally; the ones that I like; the ones that I'm kinda indifferent to; the ones that I kinda dislike.
The ones that I love fiercely and irrationally:
Rifleman! It looks so awesome and is so dangerous. Yet people ALWAYS look down on it and tend to take it less-than-serious. Add to it that it costs a measly 797 points, and I'm at an advantage as soon as I field this lovely thing!
Marauder! THE Battlemech. This machine basically represents the BT universe for me. 'Nuff said. Actually, that's not true. I also happen to think this is the penultimate fire-support 'machine, so I like to use it in games, too.
The ones that I like:
Uhm, all of them? In terms of fluff and looks that is. But we are also talking about the board-game and about making a hierarchy. So let me flesh out the other categories first, and let me get back to this one.
The ones that I'm kinda indifferent to:
Warhammer. This one I really quite like, if it wasn't for all those buts: A) really, not enough armour; B) really, not enough heat sinks; C) too diverse 2ndary weaponry, which is too unfocused and either too heavy or too weak, if you get what I mean (If you don't, please ask!). It's nice and cheap, though.
Thunderbolt. Everyone's favourite fighter, in itself a reason why I rate it lower. I'm not going to use what my opponent loves best. Also, while tough and powerful, it does actually sport a weapons-RANGE that I'm not all that comfortable with. Just personal preference. On a side note: The T-bolt happens to be a favourite perpetual modeling project of mine, I've made pretty much every variant there is (SE, SS, NAIS, C - Falcon 2nd liner), it is very rewarding (especially since the base model is pretty woeful).
Shadowhawk. Undergunned and overcooled. No optimum speed. I don't care, I still love it. Or did, until I finally acknowledged that it really didn't hurt pretty much anything on the battlefield. Ton-for-ton the least dangerous 'mech of all of these! But it looks awesome!
Stinger. This is only in this category because I like it better than the Wasp. Both the Wasp and this one look really, really cool. Or sweet, or cute. But the Locust is simply too good. When compared to the Locust the other two look really poor: way too slow, yet less armour! The choice of ride ain't going to be difficult, unless in very difficult terrain.
The ones that I kinda dislike (in terms of battlefield use, that is!):
Griffin. Was my first ride of choice when I was still young and naive..... It runs too hot. It is all mobile, so you want to take it in close where you can feel the speed advantage while at the same time keeping the to-hit mods reasonable. But the weaponry asks for long ranges. Even now, I find this a difficult 'mech to use.
Wasp. As the Stinger. But I really never liked the SRM2 as a weapon. I actually prefer machine guns. And the placement in the leg is another thing which I don't really like.
Phoenix Hawk. I learned BT in Australia. I shit you not, at least 75% of the guys over there liked the P-Hawk best, out of any 3025 rides! When I went back to Germany, it wasn't much better! This, as you may suspect by now, kindled an enmity from the start. I don't like it because of: A) heat. Of course, looking at my best-liked rides, you can see that I can ride a red-line. However, when you have a 45-tonner, you'd expect more than 8-14 damage a turn, which is the result of heat; B) a 6-point armour head. Which is bullshit, after all, I like the Rifleman best!
I know, I can't really support this design's poor placement, but I just subjectively never really liked it.
Crusader. Oh dear. I really, really think this one is the poorest of the lot. Ok, good armour and great guns. But really, really poor heat dissipation and really, really, REALLY poor placement of equipment. 'Nuff said, but I'm always open to debate.
Once again, the ones that I like:
Locust. Possibly the best DESIGN out of all of these. Great speed. Great armour (for its weight) and decent, yet versatile guns. It pretty much epitomises its strengths. What else can I say? It is a great design and has the truest rating on this site, IMO.
Archer. Wonderful! Very simple, very deadly. Just let it sit there, bombarding the enemy. It can't fight at close ranges, but it's armour will let it survive more than most things. If the enemy concentrates on taking it out at long ranges, it will probably loose. At close ranges, it will take its time. And this won't ever be my front-line fighter. Great fire-support and diversion comes at a pretty hefty cost of 1117 points, though.
Wolverine. Ah, I bet that surprises you people! I much, much prefer this one to the other 55-tonners. Oh, and it got such a poor rating from this site! Seriously, this is the one that can come in close and jump around a lot. The AC5 is enough to sting at ranges (the LRMs of the Hawk won't make such a difference), and it is most powerful at close ranges. Its heat dissipation is more efficient than on the other two designs (which have either too many or not enough sinks). The close range weaponry is the most powerful. It's armour allocation is superior than that of the other two. Seriously, when measuring this against its two contenders, this one is just a superior package, especially considering all this 5/8 speed which just screams for a heavy scout! I really, really like this one.
Battlemaster. The friend who introduced me to BT always called this to fast. With too much ammo. And not enough guns. All true, to a certain extent. But it will really heap on the hurt at close ranges, and its heavy armour makes it exceptionally tough. The 4/6 speed becomes cause and solution to its problems, getting it to its destination fast enough to use its guns. Great heat sinks make for a scary barrage, but all this means that you pay almost as many points for this as for an Atlas!
Ok, so this makes for my ranking:
14 Crusader
13 Phoenix Hawk
12 Wasp
11 Griffin
10 Stinger
09 Shadowhawk
08 Thunderbolt
07 Warhammer
06 Battlemaster
05 Wolverine
04 Archer
03 Locust
02 Marauder
01 Rifleman
Some of it pretty strange, huh?
jymset - yes, I'm really starved for attention!
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Hardware
Clan Ghost Bear
Star Colonel
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 605
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2004 06:25 Post subject: RE: Revisiting the original 14 |
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I notice all of the designs you lump into the dislike category have a heat problem. Face it, 3025 means heat management. That's why mechs break down their weapons into ranges. You have one group of weapons you fire at long range, another as the range closes, and maybe even a third for when you are belly to belly with them.
The skill in playing battletech isn't to ride a mech with no flaws, (there aren't any) the skill is playing to a mech's flaws and turning them into an advantage.
I've always liked the Warhammer over the Marauder. The 'hammer's wider weapons array gives you the choices to balance your heat every turn. I've always thought that the AC/5 on the Mad is too heavy for a secondary weapon. Maybe dumping it for a LRM rack and more armor/heat sinks would be a better compromise. But that is a matter of opinion.
And beware the Crusader. The only thing this mech needs at level 2 is double heat sinks.
_________________
The more I get to know people the more I like my dog.
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2004 07:34 Post subject: RE: Revisiting the original 14 |
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Dear goodness, Hardware, about 80% of the games I've ever played were lvl1.
If you also take notice of the category of 'mechs that I love above all reason, the Rifleman and the Marauder, I'd say that you are looking at two notoriously hot 'mechs.
Out of the 4 'mechs that I 'dislike', only one, the Griffin, is in there because of heat. The Wasp is there because its direct competitors are much better, and the P-Hawk is there because of my irrational dislike of it (I admitted so myself). The Crusi is there because of its general insanity, err... inefficiency.
Come on guys, how much can you defend such a trashcan? I reckon it is the singest strongest example of bad equipment placement to the point of making it useless! It lacks focus, ammo and heat sinks! Heat sinks in the sense that this is a design that wants to be mobile (unlike Rifleman or Marauder) and lacks jump jets (like Griffin or Phoenix Hawk). And only because all of these deficiencies come together, I dislike this 'mech. And my opinion is supported by countless encounters with it, both on and against my side.
And again on the lvl2 thing. Ok, I admit that I've only been playing BT for 8 years, so I'm not really an old-timer. But if the choice were with me, I'd say that all lvl2 equipment was scrapped, we'd get a TRO:3040 and start over! But, it was not to be, so I'll be happy withdrawing back to 3025 and before just for myself.
But please, I didn't want to direct this thread into different directions. I'd still be most interested in seeing all of your rankings!
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2004 14:57 Post subject: RE: Revisiting the original 14 |
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Out of the light machines I prefer the Locust in most situations, especially if I can deploy a pack of 'em. There are few things that a heavy or assault 'mech should fear more than a swarm of Locusts.
Of the mediums I like the Phoenix Hawk and Griffin. Griffins make excellent mobile fire support platforms, and the P. Hawk is good as a trooper or as a recon machine.
Of the heavies and assaults I favor the Battlemaster, Thunderbolt, and Archer. The Warhammer is a close second to the Archer; the Marauder has some pretty serious problems though. The Crusader is also a favorite support machine.
_________________
"The enemy's gate is down."
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2004 15:42 Post subject: RE: Revisiting the original 14 |
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Tell you what, let me rank them in mech weight categories..
Lights..
1) Locust - Always loved this mech, tough, nasty, fast, and able to harass and muck with mechs 4 or 5 times its size.
2) Stinger - Not bad, as long as you get into some of the varients. For a 20 ton mech it is fairly well laid out.
3) Wasp - I hate the SRM2 in the leg.
Mediums..
1) Pheonix Hawk - Fragile, fast, capable of doing decently well in the hands of a skilled pilot. This is one of my favorite mechs in the game. If you can fly a Hawk well, then no other mech will tax your ability to handle your heat.
2) Wolverine - Brawler supreme. Love this mech as it is the up close and personal mech. It has excellent armor, and a good mix of weaponry.
3) Griffin - The weapon loadout on this mech just do not support the way I like to fight. It has the potential for a large amount of damage output, but its concentration on long range weaponry marks it as strictly a support mech.
4) Shadow Hawk - This mech doesn't hold the armor or weaponry to hurt or defend against much of anything. It is pretty much as useless a mech as I've seen.
Heavies..
1) Warhammar - This mech has the ability for a very level damage curve, and enough heat sinks to fire most anything you want. The only drawback with the base design is its multiple ammo location slots.
2) Marauder - There is something to be said about a level 1 mech with two PPCs and the armor to use them.
3) Thunderbolt - Nice solid mech, lots of armor, interesting varients with very nice weapon loads.
4) Archer - I just don't care for LRMs as a main armament. There are however some very interesting varients, like the LRM15/Large Laser Varient.
5) Crusader - I really don't llike the attempt to be a little bit of everything, or many of the weapon placements on this mech. Good armor though, but too many ammo locations for my tastes.
6) Rifleman - Not enough heat sinks, or armor to be an effective deterrent to any aggressor.
Assaults..
1) Battlemaster - If I were to rank this with the Heavies I would rank it right behind the Marauder. Good and solid if unspectacular mech.
Pin
_________________
"My Blood is not mine to give, it belongs to my Brothers"
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Pinhead
The Bloody Clans
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1258
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2004 15:51 Post subject: RE: Revisiting the original 14 |
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One of the reasons for the low ranking of the warhammer is that the review I did of the -D version gives it a 2.5, it should have been a 4.0, but I forgot to change the rating before I submitted it.
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"My Blood is not mine to give, it belongs to my Brothers"
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Moonlapse Vertigo
Clan Goliath Scorpion
Star Captain
Joined: 02-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 207
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2004 22:18 Post subject: RE: Revisiting the original 14 |
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Quote:
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On 2004-12-02 15:51, Pinhead wrote:
One of the reasons for the low ranking of the warhammer is that the review I did of the -D version gives it a 2.5, it should have been a 4.0, but I forgot to change the rating before I submitted it.
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He said he is not considering the varients.
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Hardware
Clan Ghost Bear
Star Colonel
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 605
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-Dec-2004 00:43 Post subject: RE: Revisiting the original 14 |
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Come on Pin, how can you trash the Crusader like that? I'll grant you that this is not the front line brawler that a 'hammer or Mad is, it even comes out shy to the T-bolt. But support is what this mech is designed for.
As a lance member this design has no equal. It can effectively support its lancemates at any range. LRMs mounted in the arms give it a wide arc of fire for protection from ambush on the move or covering an assault and the SRMs mounted in the legs are perfect for "smash and bash" range. 2 6 racks and two punches can quickly clean almost any mech's clock. MGs mounted for anti-infantry work and a couple of medium lasers to balance out the heat and complement the SRMs. All this and plenty of armor. It is a great design!
_________________
The more I get to know people the more I like my dog.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 03-Dec-2004 09:04 Post subject: RE: Revisiting the original 14 |
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The Crusader was the command 'mech in a company sized campaign I ran a couple of years ago, and it did very well in that role. It's pilot would generally stand back and pour on the LRMs in the opening stage of any battle, and if I was causing the PCs trouble anywhere he could always come up to bring his short range weapons into play. It's only glaring weakness was the low number of LRM reloads, but that's par for the course with large LRM launchers.
_________________
"The enemy's gate is down."
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Hardware
Clan Ghost Bear
Star Colonel
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 605
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-Dec-2004 10:46 Post subject: RE: Revisiting the original 14 |
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Aren't roleplayers supposed to run Shadowhawks?
I played in a light lance Mechwarrior campaign where my command mech was a Stinger mod with 2 MLs and an extra ton of armor. Made a very effective scout/harrasser until I ran into a Vindicator with a veteran pilot. Got my ride shot out from under me but not before I crippled the Vindicator with a gyro hit and the resulting failed piloting skill checks turned him into soup the same round my mech went down for the last time.
That darn Vindicator pilot couldn't miss a consciousness check but he blew every pilot check. Lucky me, I upgraded to the Vindicator and hated it.
_________________
The more I get to know people the more I like my dog.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 03-Dec-2004 14:09 Post subject: RE: Revisiting the original 14 |
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I hate Shadow Hawks...at least all of the canon ones.
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"The enemy's gate is down."
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