| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
|
 Posted: 08-Jan-2006 17:55 Post subject: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
  |
|
I've kind of harped on this point a couple of times, the important facts about body armor are weight and mobility. To heavy or too constricting, you might as well not be in the fight.
A couple of articles then on the point:
NYTimes:
"Extra Armor Could Have Saved Lives."
And from the AP:
"U.S. Soldiers Question Use of More Armor."
By the way, for those of us who are html less than fully literate, how do I fomat those wo they don't take up so many lines?
[ This Message was edited by: SaberDance on 2006-01-09 13:38 ]
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
|
|
| Back to top |
  
|
AlexxKnight
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 11-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 787
|
| Posted: 08-Jan-2006 22:03 Post subject: RE: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
|
|
Here ya go take out the spaces before and after the < and >:
< A HREF="main.html" > Main Page < /A >
where it says "main.html" put in your link and where it says "Main Page" put the title or wha ever you want to be visible for your link. Make sure to include the quotes where it say "main.html"
_________________
Alexx Knight, Lance Sgt.
Command Company, Crimson Janissaries
-----------------------------------------------------
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. . . And you
|
|
| Back to top |
|
SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
|
| Posted: 09-Jan-2006 13:39 Post subject: RE: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
|
|
Thanks. Comments on the articles are also appreciated.
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
|
| Posted: 14-Jan-2006 11:07 Post subject: RE: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
|
|
Hmm ... , different time, the same problem 
I think that knights stood before the same problem during the crusades 
_________________
The dragon NEVER sleeps!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Delta
Lyran Alliance
Leutnant
Joined: 11-Dec-2004 00:00
Posts: 635
|
| Posted: 14-Jan-2006 17:33 Post subject: RE: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
|
|
So true, SD. You can't settle with either ultra light or ultra heavy. Medium is the best in this case...
IMO, this is how body armor should work...
Head- Kevlar Helmet. Duh.
Torso- Heavy Kevlar Vest, front back and sides, sides end about an inch below armpit.
Arms- Lighter Kevlar on large surfaces; joints covered even lighter.
Legs- Lighter Kevlar on large surfaces; joints covered even lighter.
I think that probally gives the best combination of mobility and protection. IIRC, current armor is only a vest and helmet.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
|
| Posted: 14-Jan-2006 18:56 Post subject: RE: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
|
|
Current armor is a little more complicated.
The helmet is made of balistic kevlar with a balistic frame inside. It will stop a 7.62mm round out of an AK at 30ft. You'll have a headache, but you'll be unheart.
The vest is made of balistic kevlar which covers the entire torso from groin to collar-bones, the sides and shoulders. It will stop a 9mm pistol round at close range.
There is then a balistic frame insert that goes into the vest that covers the pectoral muscles, the center of the chest, and the upper part of the abdomen. This increases the armor to that of the helmet. It also makes it hard to bend over, which is why the armor doesn't protect any lower than the bottom of the heart/top of the stomach.
In the back go three additional inserts which protect the spinal colun and the kidneys, but again, make it hard to bend.
All those soldiers you see with such perfect posture: it's the armor.
Legs are protected by the boots which really only deflect shards and shrapnel, and knee pads which are designed to cushion a hard dive for cover.
The arms are protected the same way with leather gloves.
Most of the soldiers dieing from "near torso" wounds are probably being shot from above, below, or the side, bypassing the armor plates.
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
|
|
| Back to top |
|
SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
|
| Posted: 14-Jan-2006 19:07 Post subject: RE: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
|
|
This is a continuation of the last post, but I decided to break it up since this deals with the new armor.
The "upgrade" armor adds shoulder pads which tie the pectoral pads into the shoulder and then over into the kidney pads. At the same time, a stip of balistic frame is inserted into the vest under the arm but above the abdmone. The vest is lengthened with additional inserts to protect the upper part of the outside of the legs. The inside is protected by a balistic jock-strap.
The neck gains an added piece of protection similar to the rest of the vest, that is, 9mm protection.
All of this protects the locations most likely to cause, by design or by accident, a lethal wound: one to the head, the heart, the lung, the kidneys, the liver, or the femoral arteries and veins.
It also has the side effect of making the soldier look like his mom dressed him in six sets of snow pants. Ever seen the younger brother in Christmas Story? Yeah, like that.
It was suggested that arms and legs get "light" kevlar armor. That really isn't a very good idea. In the extremities, if the bullet can't be stopped dead, you want it to go through. You don't want a slow bullet falling around tearing up more of the arm which just about guarentees an amputation.
In absolute terms, you can part with an arm better than a lung, so we place the armor over the lungs and leave the arm unprotected.
Now, it remains an open question whether the newer armor really is worth the loss of mobility.
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
|
| Posted: 15-Jan-2006 05:19 Post subject: RE: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
|
|
I think that middle ages armorers used many tricks to make the armor less restricting to movement and I would like to know if they are used now too (overlapping plates for flexibility, something like scales? Seriously I don't know much about modern armor).
I would like to know, how are these plates added. The armor in middle ages was built with connections, for better distribution of the weight around whole body. Maybe it would be more expensive but having the armor incorporated (as padding) in to the clothing would help here too. Soldiers would have to change trousers instead of just putting additional plates down but the protection would fit and hold together.
[ This Message was edited by: Sleeping Dragon on 2006-01-16 10:51 ]
_________________
The dragon NEVER sleeps!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
|
| Posted: 15-Jan-2006 20:06 Post subject: RE: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
|
|
Some additional information/trivia about body armor from Michael Yon
It's more or less scattered throughout the story of a patrol in Mossul a year ago.
Metal plates from the medieval period work on an entirely different principle than modern balistic protection. Metal plates primarilly deflect the blow. When militaries shifted to stopping bullets and arrows, the armor got thicker and started protecting only the chest. Look at paintings of Napoleons Cuirassiers and you'll see what I mean.
To stop a bullet requires a thick plate that can spread the pressure across the hard bones of the chest. It also has to be rigid, which means no scale armor or chainmail. If the armor bends with the bullet, it might as well not be there since all the pressure would then be transmitted to the body underneath. Bullets already leave a mark when they hit the vest, with a scale or chain system they'd break bones and possibly the skin.
Of course the armor has to stay in place, which means it has to be tight, so putting armor on the trousers or shirt-sleaves doesn't work.
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Alexander
Heavy Horse Merc Brigade
Commanding Officer
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 828
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: 15-Jan-2006 22:19 Post subject: RE: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
|
|
I remember on my first tour to Bosnia, tensions went up around my camp, so they had us running around with our body armour, and tac vests on overtop, with all the ballistic plates in. I carried my C-7, and a 9MM pistol in a shoulder holster. During this crisis, I found that with all the armour on I couldn't bend my arms around enough to draw my pistol from it's holster.
I decided to turn in my shoulder holster for a leg holster that afternoon.
Body armour sucks for mobility, but, it has it's uses... I'd just prefer to sit in a tank though.
_________________
War is God's way of teaching geography.
*******
Commanding Officer, North West Armoured Cavalry
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
|
| Posted: 16-Jan-2006 04:34 Post subject: RE: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
|
|
I'd imagine you also had the same sort of shoulder pads I had to contend with. The vest made it hard to get a proper firing stance with a rifle, which is a bigger problem than not being able to draw a popgun. Note that I said it was difficult, not impossible. So my survivability increase came at a cost in accuracy.
If they go on and add more armor the soldiers will start to look like the Michelin Man at some point. Sure, you'll have to use a LAW rocket to hurt them, but they're reduced to shooting from the hip.
_________________
A tree fall in the forest, and no one is around, and it hits a mime. Does anyone care?
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
|
| Posted: 16-Jan-2006 10:54 Post subject: RE: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
|
|
Not talking small pieces of armor, just that overlapping. I just wander if, say three, horizontal and partially overlapping stripes of armor attached to lower body would protect and provide flexibility as well.
_________________
The dragon NEVER sleeps!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
|
| Posted: 17-Jan-2006 22:59 Post subject: RE: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
|
|
Protecting the abdomen gets tricky because there are no bones to absorb the shock. Overlapping plates on the abdomen have two problems: they don't bend foreward and cover everything and they don't spread the bullet's impact over the whole abdomen.
The bullet becomes like the sucker-punch that killed Harry Houdini.
On another front: a video from Iraq on how effecting our armor is here .
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
|
| Posted: 18-Jan-2006 04:58 Post subject: RE: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
|
|
Yup, solution isn't easy, especially when it takes to protect fragile things like human body
How far are we with BA development? 
_________________
The dragon NEVER sleeps!
|
|
| Back to top |
|
Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1466
Location: Germany
|
| Posted: 18-Jan-2006 08:12 Post subject: RE: Personal Body Armor: Two views. |
|
|
Back in the 80´s the A-Team had a BA!!!!!
(Think he was called Barracus!) 
_________________
Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
