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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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 Posted: 28-Nov-2006 10:42 Post subject: Strikers: Hover vs. VTOL |
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I got to thinking about the relative merits of hovercraft fast-strike units vs. VTOL fast strike units after a recent game where I used a lance of Cavalry VTOL craft to great effect. My opponent in the game had a lance of Harrassers, which did virtually nothing.
A little more background; both sides also had eight 'mechs, all of which were slow and equipped with long range weapons, so both sides ended up parked behind partial cover or in the woods early in the game exchanging LRM, PPC, and light autocannon fire, with neither side really having much advantage. The map was covered with hills and trees; there were enough open firing lanes to allow the 'mechs to snipe, but not much manuvering room for the Harrassers. The terrain was a great boon for the VTOLs however. I hugged the ground with the choppers to avoid long-range fire from the enemy 'mechs, found an isolated Vindicator which was exchanging fire with a pair of Whitworths at long range, and peppered the Vindicator with dozens of SRMs. Three head shots rendered the pilot unconscious. The next round I circled my choppers back around for another pass (I had to keep them moving so they wouldn't make nice big fat targets for the Catapults which were exchanging fire with my Riflemen) and a few more dozen SRMs hit the Vindicator, this time knocking out the Vindicator's cockpit. In exchange, I lost one Cavalry VTOL to a lucky rotor shot. In the meantime, my opponent's Harrassers are trying the same tricks on me. They land some SRMs on me, but due to the tight terrain are being eaten alive by a pair of Enforcers. I then took another round to reposition my Cavalry choppers for another attack run, this time on a limping Cataphract which has been exchanging, and getting the worst of, fire with a Marauder. It also dies in a hail of SRMs, this time without a single point of damage done to my rampaging VTOLs.
So, in tight terrain, the mobility a VTOL will provide you is invaluable, outclassing even a long jumper, such as a Spider. VTOLs also have the advantage of essentially being able to "jump" without suffering the -3 penalty to hit a target a 'mech would incur.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Nov-2006 14:50 Post subject: RE: Strikers: Hover vs. VTOL |
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True the advantages of the VTOL in it's movement are excellent, BUT the draw back of light armor around the rotor and the fact that once it takes minor damage it's likely to crash thus killing the unit faster then a hovertank or any other vehicle does weight against it.
A mix of both might be a good way to balance out things.
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Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1466
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 28-Nov-2006 15:20 Post subject: RE: Strikers: Hover vs. VTOL |
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It depends on the terrain.
Without hills and woods the VTOL's rotors will be the weak point while the hovers wouldn't have the move-difficulties.
In a hill and or wooded terrain as in your setting the VTOL's would be superior because they can advance under cover without being slowed down like the hovers and so can risk a rotor hit just in the moment of their attack!
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Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 28-Nov-2006 17:38 Post subject: RE: Strikers: Hover vs. VTOL |
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I find with both types of units that you want to attack in passes, just to keep moving so you're harder to hit.
I guess another real advantage hovercraft have, in favorable terrain, is turrets.
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1466
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 29-Nov-2006 15:28 Post subject: RE: Strikers: Hover vs. VTOL |
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Quote:
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On 2006-11-28 17:38, mud wrote:
I find with both types of units that you want to attack in passes, just to keep moving so you're harder to hit.
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Sure! Both will be shot to pieces if they slow down to stay near a target!
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I guess another real advantage hovercraft have, in favorable terrain, is turrets.
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Right! Didn't think of it! 
_________________
Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Nov-2006 22:06 Post subject: RE: Strikers: Hover vs. VTOL |
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I love Vtol's I think they are extremely underrated. They if used right are amazing, I have had the same effect with the Calvary VTOL, in the battle we did I kept it at full movement at all times and was able to hammer some units, and most of the time when the opposition tried to fire at me he needed 10, 11, 12, and higher, Only once did he connect, and that hit my nose for 10 points from the ppc. Ill take that, over land based units anyday.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1466
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 30-Nov-2006 12:26 Post subject: RE: Strikers: Hover vs. VTOL |
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As soon as construction rules for VTOL's appeared my cousin and i started to construct some types that were more usefull than the then-VTOL's like Ferret or Warrior. We used our models throughout the years with good effect even into the pulse laser age (though it got harder!).
I never prefered them more than fast hovers but always used a good mix of them (except if i knew beforehand the terrain was very obstructed in wich case i learned to prefer VTOL's after my first bloody experience!).
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Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 30-Nov-2006 16:39 Post subject: RE: Strikers: Hover vs. VTOL |
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The canon choppers were pretty weak until you get into TRO 3058. I've retroactively introduced the Cavalry chopper in 3025.
Thought about an AC/20 Yellow Jacket, but its a bit slow to work as a fast-strike unit.
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1466
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 01-Dec-2006 09:27 Post subject: RE: Strikers: Hover vs. VTOL |
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Quote:
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On 2006-11-30 16:39, mud wrote:
...
Thought about an AC/20 Yellow Jacket, but its a bit slow to work as a fast-strike unit.
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I think it's really not fast enough for a fast-strike unit but what's with two LRM-15 instead as a mobile firesupport platform as was the original?
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Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 01-Dec-2006 12:55 Post subject: RE: Strikers: Hover vs. VTOL |
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Quote:
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On 2006-12-01 09:27, Rudel Gurken wrote:
Quote:
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On 2006-11-30 16:39, mud wrote:
...
Thought about an AC/20 Yellow Jacket, but its a bit slow to work as a fast-strike unit.
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I think it's really not fast enough for a fast-strike unit but what's with two LRM-15 instead as a mobile firesupport platform as was the original?
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That's got a lot of potential. It could also work well as a picket unit. Nice thing about a VTOL is that it could fly above SRM or medium laser range (two most common weapons on scouts), and rain down LRMs from above. Sure, a Locust or a hoverscout could outrun you, but if they can't hit you, does it really matter?
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1466
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2006 12:52 Post subject: RE: Strikers: Hover vs. VTOL |
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You can even get mobile fire support in real combat as with your speed and VTOL-movement you can easily keep your main forces between your Heli and the enemy. So fire away from behind while your main force would pose the greater threat and so would draw the enemy fire instead of your Heli.
BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Type/Model: Yellow Jacket Gunship (LRM Variant)
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3050
Config: V.T.O.L.
Rules: Level 1, Standard design
Mass: 30 tons
Power Plant: 40 Michaelson-Omni I.C.E.
Cruise Speed: 64,8 km/h
Maximum Speed: 97,2 km/h
Armor Type: StarSlab 3 Standard
Armament:
2 LRM 15s
Manufacturer: Michaelson Heavy Industries
Location: Ruchbah
Communications System: Garret Supremesound
Targeting & Tracking System: Garret D2j
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Yellow Jacket Gunship (LRM Variant)
Mass: 30 tons
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 15 pts Standard 0 3,00
Engine: 40 I.C.E. 0 2,00
Cruise MP: 6
Flank MP: 9
Heat Sinks: 0 Single 0 ,00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 1,50
Crew: 2 Members 0 ,00
Rotor Equipment: Main/Tail Rotors 0 3,00
Armor Factor: 56 pts Standard 0 3,50
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 3 20
Left / Right Sides: 3 13/13
Rear: 3 8
Rotor: 3 2
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
2 LRM 15s Front 0 24 3 17,00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 0 3 30,00
Items & Tons Left: 8 ,00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 1.320.000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 914
Cost per BV: 1.444,2
Weapon Value: 217 / 217 (Ratio = ,24 / ,24)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 11; MRDmg = 14; LRDmg = 8
BattleForce2: MP: 6V, Armor/Structure: 0 / 2
Damage PB/M/L: 1/2/2, Overheat: 0
Class: VA; Point Value: 9
Specials: if
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Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2006 22:40 Post subject: RE: Strikers: Hover vs. VTOL |
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Nevertheless, I think I prefer using VTOLs for striker duty rather than as fire support. An LRM boat usually stands off at range, and since you generally want to keep a VTOL moving at high speed, keeping the modifiers down will be a challenge.
Another problem is keeping the VTOLs nose pointed at the enemy while you're trying to dodge return fire. With a striker, you've only got to worry about this for one round...i.e., the round when you actually jump somebody. With a fire support unit, you want to keep your enemy in your sights all the time.
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1466
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 03-Dec-2006 14:10 Post subject: RE: Strikers: Hover vs. VTOL |
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The LRM variant was only a suggestion based on a 3025 Yellow Jacket. It would have its use but i personnally prefer fast strike units too.
Some of my models do not only sport shortrange weapons but also one or two LRM-5's.
So i can fire even if not in short range.
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Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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