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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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 Posted: 09-Feb-2007 12:00 Post subject: Why UAC when you can RAC? |
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I was reading the rules to see how to adjust my autocannon rules to the new Total Warfare reality.
RAC- you can now fire 20 shots if you so desired. I see nothing in the rules other than chance to jam is astronomical. If you jam you can clear.
UAC- max 2 shots, but only 2 hit on a 8+ so less than 50%. If you jam you are hosed.
So for 1 ton more you can have a RAC over a UAC. So why would you ever take a UAC2 or UAC5.?
Look at damage potential, clearing jam, etc/
Once again the AC weapon and rules get hosed.
RAC number of shots/ chance to jam
1*-n/a
2-3- 2
4-5- 2,3
6-7- 2,3,4
8-9- 2,3,4,5
10-11- 2,3,4,5,6
12-13- 2,3,4,5,6,7
14-15, 2,3,4,5,6,7,8
16-17 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
18-19 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10
20-21 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,
AWAD- Of course you may need a JR27 ammo transport right next to you.
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1469
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 09-Feb-2007 12:41 Post subject: RE: Why UAC when you can RAC? |
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Under the new Total Warfare rules you can choose any number of shots per turn up to a maximum of 6!!!! (See page 114, R: Rapid-Fire Weapon)
So you can fire 1,2,3,4,5 or 6 shots but not more!
Sorry 
EDIT: RAC`s only!
[ This Message was edited by: Rudel Gurken on 2007-02-09 12:43 ]
_________________
Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 671
Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 09-Feb-2007 13:10 Post subject: RE: Why UAC when you can RAC? |
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Personally I think the entire AC system needs to be revised in order to make them technically viable. Why would you mount an 8 ton weaopn that needs extra ammo, that does five damage. When a single ton laser can do the same damage? Ok there is a range factor but why are you going to sit at range if an enemy mech has large lasers, ppcs or LRMs which can blow holes through your mech before you have chinked half of his armour?
I think the Light AC's have the correct weightage but the original ranges were better.
I think a way to do them would be that all AC's can fire on double fire however on a roll of three or less. The weapon jams.
UAC's remove this penalty, while RAC's keep there usual rules.
The revised weight of each weapon should be as follows....
AC2- 3 tons, 1 critical
AC5- 5 tons, 2 critical
AC10- 8 tons, 7 critical
AC20- 12 tons, 9 criticals
For UAC add one ton for AC2 and AC5, 2 tons for AC10 and 20.
However, tihs doesn't solve the problem of damage. Why is it an AC2 (fluff stats it as a 30mm cannon-equivilant of the chaingun on a bradley) does the same amount of damage as a machine gun or less damage than a heavy machine gun? It makes no sense realisitically and game wise its pointless.
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Constant exposure to dangers will breed contempt for them-Seneca
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 09-Feb-2007 13:27 Post subject: RE: Why UAC when you can RAC? |
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I missed that in the first bullet point. Thanks for pointing that out. I read through it over and over but kept getting hung up on bullet point three.
It seemed that was powerful. Third bullet point does open it for the future for some weapon that can potentially shoot 20 rounds in a single "burst". Hmmm auto gauss? Mini gun from hell?
But when looking at the chart why would you every fire 2 shots from a RAC.?
With 3- 85%+ of hitting with 2 or 3 rounds.
With 4- 65% to hit with 3 or 4 rounds.
Based on averages (roll of 7), shooting 30 rounds (just for easy math)
2- 15 Hits
3- 20 hits
4- 22 hits
5- 18 hits
6- 20 hits
Best choice is the 3 column. You jam only on a 2 and put 60% of ammo on target. Even with the chance of a jam on a 2 or 3 you should still only use the 4 column and not the 5.
AWAD- Looking right at it and still did not see it.
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 09-Feb-2007 13:40 Post subject: RE: Why UAC when you can RAC? |
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Quote:
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On 2007-02-09 13:10, Wanallo wrote:
Personally I think the entire AC system needs to be revised in order to make them technically viable.
I think the Light AC's have the correct weightage but the original ranges were better.
I think a way to do them would be that all AC's can fire on double fire however on a roll of three or less. The weapon jams.
UAC's remove this penalty, while RAC's keep there usual rules.
The revised weight of each weapon should be as follows....
AC2- 3 tons, 1 critical
AC5- 5 tons, 2 critical
AC10- 8 tons, 7 critical
AC20- 12 tons, 9 criticals
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I agree with that but no need to rehash that old argument.
Your weights seem right on. 8 tons +ammo and the chance of explosion, it not like you munched them. I used light AC even before they were MAx tech as a way to get past this.
Also I had more complex following fire rules based on Solaris. I did that to give ACs a little more reason to exist.
For all the arguments, when you go to custom games, how many AC/5 did you ever see? People went Laser. And as for AC; it was the AC20 or nothing.
What brought this about is with Total Warfare I needed to look at revising my home AC rules.
How about this, Light AC can only single fire. Standard AC can double fire, with a +1 to hit, roll of 2 jams it, roll on SRM2 chart. Ultra AC can not jam, suffers no to hit penalty. RAC is per the rules.
AWAD- KISS and balance
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 09-Feb-2007 19:39 Post subject: RE: Why UAC when you can RAC? |
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Okay let me throw this in then, why not allow Rapid fire Gauss weapons or Ultra fire or even Cluster fire Gauss weapons?
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Fang
Federated Suns
Captain
Joined: 11-Sep-2006 00:00
Posts: 290
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Feb-2007 06:51 Post subject: RE: Why UAC when you can RAC? |
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Rapid fire, or even ultra rate Gauss weapons, I could maybe see. The Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle from the MW:Unbound adventure is a Gauss weapon that fires cluster rounds.
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one by one the rabbits are stealing my sanity....
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1469
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 10-Feb-2007 13:48 Post subject: RE: Why UAC when you can RAC? |
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The new Hyper Assault Gauss 20, 30 and 40 deliver their damage in 5 point groups there is an Anti-personnel Gauss Rifle now that is a rapid fire (MG like) weapon (all Clan only!)
_________________
Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Feb-2007 15:11 Post subject: RE: Why UAC when you can RAC? |
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Quote:
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On 2007-02-10 13:48, Rudel Gurken wrote:
The new Hyper Assault Gauss 20, 30 and 40 deliver their damage in 5 point groups there is an Anti-personnel Gauss Rifle now that is a rapid fire (MG like) weapon (all Clan only!)
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Now what about about an Ultra version? Or a bigger RAC version of the Gauss?
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Fang
Federated Suns
Captain
Joined: 11-Sep-2006 00:00
Posts: 290
Location: United States
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| Posted: 10-Feb-2007 15:14 Post subject: RE: Why UAC when you can RAC? |
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Rotary Gauss? Wonder how heavy that would be. And the power consumption needed to maintain the magnetic field for firing from multiple barrels, would that raise the heat generated?
_________________
one by one the rabbits are stealing my sanity....
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 12-Feb-2007 00:54 Post subject: RE: Why UAC when you can RAC? |
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Another important change with Total Warfare is you can no longer aim with a TC and rapid fire your RAC or UAC.
Not such a big deal but the Templar is built around that idea aiming at a location with those RAC2. You still get the -1 to hit. You can still aim at a single location but only on single shot mode.
A Mech like hte Argus in which it has one big primary weapon RAC, this really hurts. Since TC is based on weight I doubt we will see to many more ballistic (other than Guass) based. Argus could drop the RAC and hte ammo and add 2 LL and some HS. Same range but can now aim 16 points at a location. Which would you choose?
But Pulse Lasers are considered rapid fire and can not not aim at a location either. They always get the -1, so a total of -3. That negates jumping.
They nerfed the TC/Pulse munch combo but got some others in collateral damage.
AWAD- Looking for those little changes.
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DarkAdder
Clan Star Adder
Star Commander
Joined: 10-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 604
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| Posted: 12-Feb-2007 03:51 Post subject: RE: Why UAC when you can RAC? |
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I think one of the benefits of the UAC over the RAC is the ammuniton set up. Granted, I havent had any recent rules to peruse, and my information on a lot of this stuff is WAAAY beyond rusty.
From what I recall, using the RAC at Full Tilt Boogie tends to chew through your ammo pretty fast. Hey, you go blazing away at six shots per turn and see how fast that ton of ammo dries up....
The UAC tends to blow through ammo kind of quickly, too. But it has the benefit of being capped at two shots per salvo, rather than cutting lose with five or six.
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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 12-Feb-2007 23:52 Post subject: RE: Why UAC when you can RAC? |
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...and reduce the range. A rotary gauss cannon would not be as accurate; the power going to the individual slugs might be reduced in order to compensate somewhat for the increased demands on the system, and the rotating barrel could reduce accuracy.
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"The enemy's gate is down."
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 12-Feb-2007 23:55 Post subject: RE: Why UAC when you can RAC? |
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Sometimes you want to be able to fire 4-6 shots...i.e., when if you don't kill that heavy 'mech that's bearing down on you...RIGHT NOW, it won't matter whether or not you have any ammo left in your bins, or whether or not your autocannon is jammed.
The advantage the UAC has is range. The RAC is a medium range weapon at best in 3062. Good for brawlers, but not for fire support units.
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"The enemy's gate is down."
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DarkAdder
Clan Star Adder
Star Commander
Joined: 10-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 604
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| Posted: 20-Feb-2007 15:47 Post subject: |
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I do agree with you, Mud. Theres times when you have to kill your target, ammo be damned. But the RAC always struck me as a 'spray n pray' weapon. Yeah, you took out your target, after capping off a dozen salvos in one turn. if you really want to impress me, take out that target with a standard AC......
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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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