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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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 Posted: 26-Apr-2007 15:31 Post subject: Mercenary Warship Request |
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Yeah, yeah, I know. Scream munchkin all you like.  But the truth is I like naval warfare, and would like to give my troops a token warship to help keep things remotely fair. So the question is, what to use? I've toyed around with the idea of using my "Autumn" design, designing something new, or just using a Carrack that's refit to not have tinfoil for armor.
I want to find something more or less able to fend for itself in combat, transport plenty of dropships, and generally be low maintenance and tough. Energy weaponry is a plus, especially in terms of capital weaponry. So is small size and low (comparatively, obviously) cost. Something like a large corvette or armed transport is the ideal hull. Speed is also heavily valued, since you want to be able to get away if you can't win. Even if this warship is inexpensive, it's still going to be the most expensive thing the company owns, much like jumpships usually are. Oh, and low levels of crew required is nice too, since those are less people you need to pay. (Sadly, because of the immense cost, Lithium Fusion Batteries are RIGHT OUT.)
This is a pretty open ended contest, despite the strange principle behind it, so let us see your creativity. If requested, I can post my Vigilant Transport or combat enabled Carrack. The Autumn can be found somewhere on the site if you do a search for it. It hasn't changed much since I posted it.
Edit: Also, having had some time to think about it, I doubt any warship would be produced for mercs. But maybe some successor state or old star league design that might be near perfect for the use if found by some very lucky mercs. After all, out in the periphery and other deep space like contexts, its finders keepers, provided you can defend your new treasure.
Edited Again: Due to the hazy nature of my criteria, I think this might not have been a fair platform for a contest. That being said, I am enjoying the discussion, and seeing the schematics. So allow me to repurpose this thread to more of a technical discussion of mercenary warship design and suggestions. Or, at least it will be so long as this thread attracts people for me to talk to. Given this, my thoughts on posted designs will likely appear more quickly.
_________________
Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
[Last edited by CO_17thRecon on 05-May-2007 00:24; edited 1 time in total]
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Apr-2007 17:30 Post subject: |
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If I can find my conversion of the merc cruiser from Traveller I will post it for you...
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Apr-2007 18:45 Post subject: |
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| Karagin wrote: | | If I can find my conversion of the merc cruiser from Traveller I will post it for you... |
I'd like to see it. In the meantime, here's one of my ideas. It's still kinda expensive, but that seems to be a factor of the docking collars, and thus any ship capable of carrying dropships will be more expensive than ones that do not. Feel free to point out design problems, offer suggestions, or simply offer a counter design.
AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Class/Model/Name: Lesalia Class Corvette
Tech: Inner Sphere / 2000
Vessel Type: WarShip
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set: AeroTech2
Mass: 180,000 tons
K-F Drive System: (Unknown)
Length: 363 meters
Sail Diameter: 894 meters
Power Plant: Standard
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Armor Type: Standard
Armament:
5 ExoStar NL45
32 Kreuss PPC
32 Holly LRM 20
40 ExoStar II Medium Laser
32 LFN Lindblad Machine Gun
3 ExoStar NL35
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
Designed and built in 2498 for the Terran Hegemony, the Lesalia Class
Corvette was amongst the smallest warships ever built with the purpose of
directly engaging the enemy. The Lesalia was built with multiple uses in mind,
most of them requiring a ship of small size. First and foremost, the Lesalia
is an excellant blockade runner, with speed to rival many slower aerospace
fighters. Most things that can catch a Lesalia class starship are rarely
capable of inflicting telling damage upon it, due to its thick armor. If
forced into combat however, the Lesalia is generally lackluster, relying on
sniping at range, and anti-fighter work.
Lesalia corvettes also feature a great deal of luxury for the crew, and
the capability of operating indepently for lengthy periods. During such time
however, the Lesalia must recieve dropship support, due to its low cargo
carrying capacity.
==Capabilities:==
Designed mostly as a small, fast, support ship, the Lesalia class breaks
from typical Star League protocols. It mounts minimal capital ship weaponry,
mostly enough to give assault dropships pause. It boasts significant smaller
weaopn bays however, and at close range can threaten even larger ships with
the combined firepower availible.
The Lesalia uses mostly similar weapon bays, because the bays were
manufactured in one piece, and simply plugged into appropriate places in the
hull. This has caused problems at times when repairs were necessary, as the
modules were designed to be replaced rather than repaired. This is among the
factors that lead to the ship's ultimate retirement.
Though it served well in early wars of the Hegemony, the design was
eventually retired, and most ships scuttled. The growing navies of the
successor states carried much heavier weaopnry, capable of crippling the
Lesalia easily. Even though the ship mounted more than three times the armor
of the Vincent class, it eventually gave way to the Vincent, and other ships
like it, designed with firepower in mind rather than protection.
Designers Note: Not bad. It's very fast, matching the speed of the Hare class
corvette that the FWL uses. It mounts exceptional armor for a ship of its
size, although in a larger engagement, this becomes moot point given the
amount of firepower capable of being leveled at it. Still, best to protect the
investment. Low cargo sucks, but given that it should never be alone, and
always operating with a full compliment of ships makes it matter less. In
fact, I've turned it from something that could be used as a transport into
something that had better be used as one. I also like the idea of a blockade
runner. Jump in, burn for the planet, let off the ships, burn across to the
other jump point, and jump out on batteries charged by the reactor. Wow...a
drive by with 'Mech transports.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: Lesalia Class Corvette
Mass: 180,000 tons
Equipment: Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control: 54,000.00
Thrust: Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive: Compact (Integrity = 5) 81,450.00
Jump Sail (Detachable): (Integrity = 3) 39.00
Structural Integrity: 125 22,500.00
Total Heat Sinks: 1,000 Single 627.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 3,570.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters: 450.00
Fire Control Computers: .00
Food & Water: (252 days supply) 191.25
Armor Type: Standard (348 total armor pts) 449.50
Capital Scale Armor Pts
Location: L / R
Fore: 64
Fore-Left/Right: 58/58
Aft-Left/Right: 58/58
Aft: 52
Cargo:
Bay 1: Small Craft (6) with 6 doors 1,200.00
Bay 2: Cargo (1) 142.25
DropShip Capacity: 4 Docking Hardpoints 4,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 3: (250-meter diameter) 300.00
Life Boats: 14 (7 tons each) 98.00
Escape Pods: 14 (7 tons each) 98.00
Crew and Passengers:
19 Officers (19 minimum) 190.00
62 Crew (62 minimum) 620.00
31 Gunners (31 minimum) 310.00
10 1st Class Passengers 100.00
30 Bay Personnel .00
Weapons and Equipment Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 NL45 Nose 9 9 9 9 140 1,800.00
4 PPC Nose 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 40 28.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) Nose 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 24 60.00
5 Medium Laser Nose 3(25) -- -- -- 15 5.00
4 Machine Gun(100 rounds) Nose 1(8) -- -- -- 0 3.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) FL/R 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 48 120.00
4 PPC FL/R 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 80 56.00
5 Medium Laser FL/R 3(25) -- -- -- 30 10.00
4 Machine Gun(100 rounds) FL/R 1(8) -- -- -- 0 6.00
1 NL45 L/RBS 8 8 8 5 140 1,800.00
1 NL35 104 1,400.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) L/RBS 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 48 120.00
4 PPC L/RBS 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 80 56.00
5 Medium Laser L/RBS 3(25) -- -- -- 30 10.00
4 Machine Gun(100 rounds) L/RBS 1(8) -- -- -- 0 6.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) AL/R 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 48 120.00
4 PPC AL/R 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 80 56.00
5 Medium Laser AL/R 3(25) -- -- -- 30 10.00
4 Machine Gun(100 rounds) AL/R 1(8) -- -- -- 0 6.00
1 NL45 Aft 8 8 8 5 70 900.00
1 NL35 52 700.00
4 LRM 20(120 rounds) Aft 5(48) 5(48) 5(48) -- 24 60.00
4 PPC Aft 4(40) 4(40) -- -- 40 28.00
5 Medium Laser Aft 3(25) -- -- -- 15 5.00
4 Machine Gun(100 rounds) Aft 1(8) -- -- -- 0 3.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (1.28%) 2,300.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: Heat: 1,138 180,000.00
Tons Left: .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 4,862,670,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 33,460
Cost per BV: 145,327.85
Weapon Value: 27,823 (Ratio = .83)
Damage Factors: SRV = 1,046; MRV = 713; LRV = 303; ERV = 83
Maintenance: Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 335,678
(185,891 Structure, 123,745 Life Support, 26,042 Weapons)
Support Points (SP) = 128,859 (38% of MPV)
BattleForce2: Not applicable
_________________
Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 27-Apr-2007 05:42 Post subject: |
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Actually there is already one (or more) mercenary group selling transport services. The Medusans (p. 49 Mercenaries Supplemental II)
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The dragon NEVER sleeps!
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Apr-2007 20:30 Post subject: |
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If you want a warship I would go with one that is or has been previously modified but nothing new. Like a Sovetskii Soyuz, an Ageis, A Texas or a Potemkin if you want a lot of drop ships. They all exsisted in the IS at one time or another and could be salvaged.
Which brings up a interesting question, I have asked this before and never really gotten a response. So Ill ask again.
Are there Mech, and Spaceship graveyards? We have them now with aircraft (in nevada I believe mothballed fighters head there, so the elements dont destroy them to fast, IIRC) Now do they do the same with mechs and warships? My guess is they do, And over time the locations may become lost just like the old star league bases. Running across a Warship graveyard whould happen at some point, and though they are mothballed and out of date designes should be salvageable to be useful.
_________________
Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Apr-2007 22:05 Post subject: |
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| Stinger wrote: | | If you want a warship I would go with one that is or has been previously modified but nothing new. Like a Sovetskii Soyuz, an Ageis, A Texas or a Potemkin if you want a lot of drop ships. They all exsisted in the IS at one time or another and could be salvaged. |
Problem is, those are all MASSIVE. And the upkeep on one would break the company, and if it didn't, the balance of power is shifted too much. I want them to be involved in warship battles, not decimating fleets. That being said, it is why I mentioned that this is not really a new ship, but a new request. The back story is likely that this is a design fielded by the Star League, and salvaged for the mercs' use.
| Stinger wrote: | Which brings up a interesting question, I have asked this before and never really gotten a response. So Ill ask again.
Are there Mech, and Spaceship graveyards? We have them now with aircraft (in nevada I believe mothballed fighters head there, so the elements dont destroy them to fast, IIRC) Now do they do the same with mechs and warships? My guess is they do, And over time the locations may become lost just like the old star league bases. Running across a Warship graveyard whould happen at some point, and though they are mothballed and out of date designes should be salvageable to be useful. |
'Mechs? Yes. Warships? Sort of. Only the Clans, Wolf's Dragoons, and Comstar/WoB really know where any large amount of ships are. And they aren't usually keen on telling people. They don't know where ALL of the possible warships are, but they know quite a few. Recently (gametime anyway), the Wobblies traded some info to the FWL for help in salvaging some ships. The Wobblies got a few, and the FWL got a few.
_________________
Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5792
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Apr-2007 02:23 Post subject: |
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| Code: | AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Class/Model/Name: Ares (Corvette)
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3067
Vessel Type: WarShip
Rules: Level 2, Custom design
Rules Set: AeroTech2
Mass: 180,000 tons
K-F Drive System: (Unknown)
Length: 363 meters
Sail Diameter: 894 meters
Power Plant: Standard
Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide
Armament:
48 ER PPC
32 Medium Pulse Laser
32 AMS
2 Heavy NPPC
2 NAC/30
4 NL45
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
The Zechetinu class corvette was designed by FWLM to operate as either an
independent convoy-raider, picket ship or as an escort vessel. It would be
these features plus ample cargo bays that would inspire an aspiring young
engineer to formulate multiple modifications that would create a superior
design for an ambitious mercenary unit seeking to venture into the wilds of
space.
==Capabilities:==
Capable of accelerating up to 2 Gs for sustained periods and up to 3 Gs
in short bursts, the Ares is plenty fast and maneuverable for a WarShip whose
primary mission is to escort and transport a mercenary company or battalion.
The Ares features a formidable array of anti-DropShip/WarShip weapons and
fighter-defense systems, including the impressive Heavy NPPC of McKenna fame.
It should be noted that most of these weapons are energy based in order to
reduce the cost and amount of cargo space that need be set aside for
munitions.
The Ares has expanded the crew accommodations by using the weight and
space saved by omitting the expensive and cumbersome Lithium-Fusion Battery
and can accommodate two hundred and twenty-nine crewmembers, eighty marines,
and five hundred and four passengers- though in somewhat modest conditions.
The Ares supports eight grav-decks, in contrast to the Zechetinu small
grav-deck. Further more, the ships on board supplies and fuel reserves have
been expanded with the later nearly doubled in quantity.
In all, despite its relatively thin armor plating when compared to more
focused warships like the Fox class corvette, the large passenger capacity,
fuel reserves, food supplies, number of grav-decks, and cargo capacity of the
Ares allows it to easily serve as a mobile head quarters for any mercenary
group that could afford to operate the Ares. However, this feature partially
recoups itself by removing the unit's basing costs, repair facility fees, and
travel expenses. A situation that is more win then loose if costs can be
met.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: Ares (Corvette)
Mass: 180,000 tons
Equipment: Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control: 43,200.00
Thrust: Safe Thrust: 4
Maximum Thrust: 6
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive: Compact (Integrity = 5) 81,450.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 3) 39.00
Structural Integrity: 25 4,500.00
Total Heat Sinks: 905 Double 567.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 3,688.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters: 450.00
Fire Control Computers: 44.00
Food & Water: (183 days supply) 744.00
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide (126 total armor pts) 90.00
Capital Scale Armor Pts
Location: L / R
Fore: 23
Fore-Left/Right: 21/21
Aft-Left/Right: 21/21
Aft: 19
Cargo:
Bay 1: Small Craft (6) with 2 doors 1,200.00
Cargo (1) with 1 door 1,200.00
Bay 2: Cargo (1) with 2 doors 5,530.00
Bay 3: Cargo (1) with 2 doors 5,530.00
DropShip Capacity: 4 Docking Hardpoints 4,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 8: (88-meter diameter) 400.00
Escape Pods: 68 (7 tons each) 476.00
Crew and Passengers:
33 Officers (33 minimum) 330.00
130 Crew (48 minimum) 910.00
36 Gunners (27 minimum) 252.00
200 1st Class Passengers 2,000.00
304 2nd Class Passengers 2,128.00
80 Marines 400.00
30 Bay Personnel .00
Weapons and Equipment Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 ER PPC Nose 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
2 ER PPC Nose 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
2 ER PPC Nose 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
2 ER PPC Nose 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
2 ER PPC Nose 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
2 ER PPC Nose 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
4 Medium Pulse Laser Nose 2(24) -- -- -- 16 8.00
4 Medium Pulse Laser Nose 2(24) -- -- -- 16 8.00
4 AMS(240 rounds) Nose -- -- -- -- 4 22.00
4 AMS(240 rounds) Nose -- -- -- -- 4 22.00
1 Heavy NPPC FL/R 15 15 15 15 450 6,000.00
1 NAC/30(60 rounds) FL/R 30 30 30 -- 200 7,096.00
2 ER PPC L/RBS 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 60 28.00
2 ER PPC L/RBS 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 60 28.00
2 ER PPC L/RBS 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 60 28.00
2 ER PPC L/RBS 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 60 28.00
2 ER PPC L/RBS 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 60 28.00
2 ER PPC L/RBS 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 60 28.00
4 Medium Pulse Laser L/RBS 2(24) -- -- -- 32 16.00
4 Medium Pulse Laser L/RBS 2(24) -- -- -- 32 16.00
4 AMS(240 rounds) L/RBS -- -- -- -- 8 44.00
4 AMS(240 rounds) L/RBS -- -- -- -- 8 44.00
2 NL45 AL/R 9 9 9 9 280 3,600.00
2 ER PPC Aft 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
2 ER PPC Aft 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
2 ER PPC Aft 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
2 ER PPC Aft 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
2 ER PPC Aft 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
2 ER PPC Aft 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
4 Medium Pulse Laser Aft 2(24) -- -- -- 16 8.00
4 Medium Pulse Laser Aft 2(24) -- -- -- 16 8.00
4 AMS(240 rounds) Aft -- -- -- -- 4 22.00
4 AMS(240 rounds) Aft -- -- -- -- 4 22.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (2.00%) 3,600.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: Heat: 1,810 180,000.00
Tons Left: .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 4,950,730,920 C-Bills
Battle Value: 47,441
Cost per BV: 104,355.53
Weapon Value: 19,698 (Ratio = .42)
Damage Factors: SRV = 1,710; MRV = 1,337; LRV = 913; ERV = 306
Maintenance: Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 221,259
(42,652 Structure, 135,195 Life Support, 43,412 Weapons)
Support Points (SP) = 227,333 (103% of MPV)
BattleForce2: Not applicable
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_________________
one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Apr-2007 19:45 Post subject: |
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| CO_17thRecon wrote: | | Stinger wrote: | | If you want a warship I would go with one that is or has been previously modified but nothing new. Like a Sovetskii Soyuz, an Ageis, A Texas or a Potemkin if you want a lot of drop ships. They all existed in the IS at one time or another and could be salvaged. |
Problem is, those are all MASSIVE. And the upkeep on one would break the company, and if it didn't, the balance of power is shifted too much. I want them to be involved in warship battles, not decimating fleets. That being said, it is why I mentioned that this is not really a new ship, but a new request. The back story is likely that this is a design fielded by the Star League, and salvaged for the mercs' use.
|
Yes they are massive but if its a salvaged design then maybe only half of the weapons work. That way they have something that may be useful in instilling fear in the enemy, but mostly as a bluff. But little does the enemy know that its really just a shell with only say a third of it weapons working.
| wrote: |
| Stinger wrote: | Which brings up a interesting question, I have asked this before and never really gotten a response. So Ill ask again.
Are there Mech, and Spaceship graveyards? We have them now with aircraft (in Nevada I believe mothballed fighters head there, so the elements don't destroy them to fast, IIRC) Now do they do the same with mechs and warships? My guess is they do, And over time the locations may become lost just like the old star league bases. Running across a Warship graveyard would happen at some point, and though they are mothballed and out of date designs should be salvageable to be useful. |
'Mechs? Yes. Warships? Sort of. Only the Clans, Wolf's Dragoons, and Comstar/WoB really know where any large amount of ships are. And they aren't usually keen on telling people. They don't know where ALL of the possible warships are, but they know quite a few. Recently (gametime anyway), the Wobblies traded some info to the FWL for help in salvaging some ships. The Wobblies got a few, and the FWL got a few. |
Yes but that pretty much backs up what I asked. I am not talking about several hundred warship graveyards as most of them are going to be salvaged in some way shape or form. You could have them run across a graveyard that has say 20 to 40 designs that are all in a massive state of disrepair. None of them have weapons as they were salvaged, weakened armor structures, They could spend the time to salvage 2 designs and then use one design to trade for weapons and supplies and even work on the other design. Or after cherry picking the graveyard sell the coordinates to the highest bidder to finish repairs on the design they are going to use.
_________________
Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Apr-2007 23:19 Post subject: |
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| Stinger wrote: | | Yes they are massive but if its a salvaged design then maybe only half of the weapons work. That way they have something that may be useful in instilling fear in the enemy, but mostly as a bluff. But little does the enemy know that its really just a shell with only say a third of it weapons working. |
That still is nearly impossible. The amount of crew required on on a ship that size is massive. For reference:
Texas Class BattleShip: 117 officers, 507 crew, 78 gunners, 702 total
Potemkin Class Troop Cruiser: 68 officers, 279 crew, 48 gunners, 395 total
Aegis Class Cruiser: 49 officers, 146 crew, 80 gunners, 275 total
Sovetskii Soyuz Class Heavy Cruiser: 42 officers, 169 crew, 32 gunners, 243 total
Lesalia Mk. XIII Corvette: 19 officers, 62 crew, 30 gunners, 111 total
My latest version of the Lesalia (I keep messing with it and tweaking it) requires less total people aboard than any of those other ships requires enlisted men. And all of these figures are without taking into account the necessary bay personnel or aerospace pilots that would be required to bring the ship up to full combat ready status. And let's not talk about maintenance costs.
My guys will have to deal with being outclassed by House Navies in terms of size and potential. They'll just have to learn to be sneaky, bring support when possible, and run when things look bad. A small ship helps emphasize all this, while making it more easy on the pocket book.
Edit: As well, easier to go up than down. We could always get everyone together and gun ho, and do a boarding action if we really felt the desire to have something bigger. It would be bloody and hard, but when talking about getting something as powerful as a warship, it ought to be.
| Stinger wrote: | | Yes but that pretty much backs up what I asked. I am not talking about several hundred warship graveyards as most of them are going to be salvaged in some way shape or form. You could have them run across a graveyard that has say 20 to 40 designs that are all in a massive state of disrepair. None of them have weapons as they were salvaged, weakened armor structures, They could spend the time to salvage 2 designs and then use one design to trade for weapons and supplies and even work on the other design. Or after cherry picking the graveyard sell the coordinates to the highest bidder to finish repairs on the design they are going to use. |
Pretty much. I plan to have them find the ship, almost but not quite operational. They have to fix it, and limp home without someone else stealing their prize. (Those should be some fun space battles.) Once home, they bargain to get the ship fixed, and sell the information in the ship's databanks. Information which leads to other disabled ships.
_________________
Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-May-2007 01:50 Post subject: |
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I'm an armor-first kinda guy, so I can't match Vagabond's firepower, but this should be reasonable against dropships. I've also tried to minimize the crew.
You didn't say how many fighters you wanted, so I've only got a squadron. You didn't say if you wanted it fluffed, either - I can go back and do that, if you like, along with a name. (Neither fluff nor name occurred while I was designing this, and I've been fluffing other things lately.)
| Code: | AeroTech 2 Vessel Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Class/Model/Name: Merc
Tech: Inner Sphere / 2740
Vessel Type: WarShip
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Rules Set: AeroTech2
Mass: 200,000 tons
K-F Drive System: (Unknown)
Length: 381 meters
Sail Diameter: 903 meters
Power Plant: Standard
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide
Armament:
20 NL45
32 ER PPC
32 Large Pulse Laser
40 Medium Laser
32 Small Pulse Laser
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Class/Model/Name: Merc
Mass: 200,000 tons
Equipment: Mass
Power Plant, Drive & Control: 60,000.00
Thrust: Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Kearny-Fuchida Hyperdrive: Compact (Integrity = 6) 90,500.00
Jump Sail: (Integrity = 3) 40.00
Structural Integrity: 82 16,400.00
Total Heat Sinks: 800 Double 409.00
Fuel & Fuel Pumps: 6,047.00
Bridge, Controls, Radar, Computer & Attitude Thrusters: 500.00
Fire Control Computers: .00
Food & Water: (165 days supply) 150.00
Armor Type: Lamellor Ferro-carbide (442 total armor pts) 328.00
Capital Scale Armor Pts
Location: L / R
Fore: 84
Fore-Left/Right: 73/73
Aft-Left/Right: 73/73
Aft: 66
Cargo:
Bay 1: Fighters (6) with 3 doors 900.00
Small Craft (2) with 1 door 400.00
DropShip Capacity: 4 Docking Hardpoints 4,000.00
Grav Decks #1 - 2: (50-meter diameter) 100.00
Escape Pods: 10 (7 tons each) 70.00
Crew and Passengers:
22 Officers (22 minimum) 220.00
63 Crew (63 minimum) 441.00
43 Gunners (43 minimum) 301.00
2 1st Class Passengers 20.00
2 2nd Class Passengers 14.00
28 Marines 140.00
22 Bay Personnel .00
Weapons and Equipment Loc SRV MRV LRV ERV Heat Mass
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 NL45 Nose 9 9 9 9 140 1,800.00
2 ER PPC Nose 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
2 ER PPC Nose 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
2 Large Pulse Laser Nose 2(18) 2(18) -- -- 20 14.00
2 Large Pulse Laser Nose 2(18) 2(18) -- -- 20 14.00
3 Medium Laser Nose 2(15) -- -- -- 9 3.00
3 Medium Laser Nose 2(15) -- -- -- 9 3.00
4 Small Pulse Laser Nose 1(12) -- -- -- 8 4.00
3 NL45 FL/R 14 14 14 14 420 5,400.00
2 ER PPC FL/R 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 60 28.00
2 ER PPC FL/R 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 60 28.00
2 Large Pulse Laser FL/R 2(18) 2(18) -- -- 40 28.00
2 Large Pulse Laser FL/R 2(18) 2(18) -- -- 40 28.00
4 Medium Laser FL/R 2(20) -- -- -- 24 8.00
4 Small Pulse Laser FL/R 1(12) -- -- -- 16 8.00
3 NL45 L/RBS 14 14 14 14 420 5,400.00
2 ER PPC L/RBS 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 60 28.00
2 ER PPC L/RBS 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 60 28.00
2 Large Pulse Laser L/RBS 2(18) 2(18) -- -- 40 28.00
2 Large Pulse Laser L/RBS 2(18) 2(18) -- -- 40 28.00
4 Medium Laser L/RBS 2(20) -- -- -- 24 8.00
4 Small Pulse Laser L/RBS 1(12) -- -- -- 16 8.00
2 NL45 AL/R 9 9 9 9 280 3,600.00
2 ER PPC AL/R 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 60 28.00
2 ER PPC AL/R 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 60 28.00
2 Large Pulse Laser AL/R 2(18) 2(18) -- -- 40 28.00
2 Large Pulse Laser AL/R 2(18) 2(18) -- -- 40 28.00
3 Medium Laser AL/R 2(15) -- -- -- 18 6.00
3 Medium Laser AL/R 2(15) -- -- -- 18 6.00
4 Small Pulse Laser AL/R 1(12) -- -- -- 16 8.00
2 NL45 Aft 9 9 9 9 140 1,800.00
2 ER PPC Aft 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
2 ER PPC Aft 2(20) 2(20) 2(20) -- 30 14.00
2 Large Pulse Laser Aft 2(18) 2(18) -- -- 20 14.00
2 Large Pulse Laser Aft 2(18) 2(18) -- -- 20 14.00
3 Medium Laser Aft 2(15) -- -- -- 9 3.00
3 Medium Laser Aft 2(15) -- -- -- 9 3.00
4 Small Pulse Laser Aft 1(12) -- -- -- 8 4.00
1 Lot Spare Parts (0.25%) 500.00
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: Heat: 2,384 200,000.00
Tons Left: .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 4,907,062,624 C-Bills
Battle Value: 39,039
Cost per BV: 125,696.42
Weapon Value: 34,950 (Ratio = .90)
Damage Factors: SRV = 1,131; MRV = 886; LRV = 496; ERV = 175
Maintenance: Maintenance Point Value (MPV) = 279,754
(102,328 Structure, 138,150 Life Support, 39,276 Weapons)
Support Points (SP) = 283,950 (101% of MPV)
BattleForce2: Not applicable
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| Merc.hma |
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_________________
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close semblance to the first."
- Attributed to General Aleksandr Kerensky
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-May-2007 11:01 Post subject: |
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I'm going to go ahead and offer criticism for both designs, I suppose. I am thankful that people are giving me things to look over. And I have learned a few neat tricks. The contest isn't over, though.
Vagabond's Design:
It's a massive ship, in terms of carrying people. This is its greatest benefit, because it eliminates needing a dropship for that. Also, it can carry dropships, jump, and defend itself passably well, though the armor is thin. It carries a good amount of cargo and spare parts as well (which eliminates the cargo dropship). Somewhat unfortunately, it doesn't mount enough escape pods/life boats for 100% capacity.
It carries a great deal of marines, which seems odd to me, given that the ship is not meant (judging from the armor), nor really capable of being used in an offensive manner (again, armor). The marines could use the small craft to attack and take over another ship, but only if it was distracted, and not blowing up the Ares.
It carries far more crew than required. I understand this is likely due to maintenance issues, being able to provide 100% for the ship. But you can generally get by with 30% or so unless you're in heavy combat. And then, you really need a repair facility, since there is only so much you can do in space, yeah?
To sum up, Vagabond's Ares is a nice transport, other than perhaps the safety issue, which is the most pressing one I think. The marines are at little superfluous, but whatever floats your boat. Overall, the only problem I see is the class of ship it claims to be. It acts more like a transport than a corvette, given its lack of power in battle. (Not that corvettes are very strong, but...)
Star Raven's Design:
Now we go the other direction. This ship is FAR more capable of holding its own in combat, provided that its opponent is not a cruiser or battleship. At least a few minutes of exchanging fire is possible, which means giving the dropships time to get out of a hot LZ and link up before getting the heck out of dodge. The small amount of marines give it reasonable defense against boarding actions. I question the nature of the 4 passengers, but I digress.
The fighters are nice, but given the design's lack of safety features, cargo space, and creature comforts, they really ought to be removed. Some of the fuel could go the same way, and maybe a little of the structural reinforcement (down to 80). Ten escape pods is simply far too small a number, and the grav decks could use increased size.
What we have here, are two very different designs in purpose.
Star Raven seemed to pack as much firepower, speed, and usefulness onto the tiny frame as possible. Vagabond opted for a lightly armored transport capable of carrying everyone and their brother. Neither design is bad, though the lack of escape pods on both worries me.
Oh well, things I have learned thus far about Warship construction:
1) Multiple smaller bays are (usually) better than larger single bays. You gamble less on damage. With three bays each containing a capital weapon, you make it less likely that all three will hit than if they were all in the same bay, but you make it MUCH more likely that at least one will.
2) I can't think of any good reason to use standard PPCs or ER PPCs. ER LLAS and LLAS have functionally the same damage and range in small bays, and weigh less and generate lower heat.
3) Large pulse lasers make good anti-fighter weapons, due to their combination of range, damage, and pulse abilities.
4) Any point defense gun is best used in groups of three, since that way it rounds up to (1) without you wasting any damage.
5) Surprisingly, docking collars are expensive equipment.
6) Armor, even expensive armor, is cheap.
7) Naval autocannons are about the most efficient in terms of naval firepower. They do good damage, at good range, for low heat.
8) Naval PPCs seem to function like groups of Naval lasers, if you consider the damage and heat. I would surmise this lets you cut down on the number of weapons being used on larger vessels.
9) Naval Gauss weapons are...very...inefficient. That's as nice as I can put it. But they do have good range.
10) AR10 launchers are fun. Fire torpedo!
_________________
Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-May-2007 19:44 Post subject: |
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| CO_17thRecon wrote: | [...] I question the nature of the 4 passengers, but I digress.
The fighters are nice, but given the design's lack of safety features, cargo space, and creature comforts, they really ought to be removed. Some of the fuel could go the same way, and maybe a little of the structural reinforcement (down to 80). Ten escape pods is simply far too small a number, and the grav decks could use increased size. | The four passengers are intended as VIP cabins. This avoids the problem of "Oh hell, the Coordinator is riding our ship to the Star League Council - which of you is giving up his quarters? How about you, Chu-sa?" Admittedly, this is more a problem for House ships than mercs, but it always seemed a good idea.
I forgot about the escape pods - I usually include 50 to 60% capacity, but there are few enough crew here to make it 100%.
As for cargo, I usually try to avoid giving WarShips cargo bays at all. As long as it carries ammo, fuel, food, and spare parts (which all have tonnage allocated separately), I'm happy. If you want cargo bays, then build a CargoShip. The only reason I use WarShip cargo bays is to support fighters - you have to store their ammo, fuel, and parts someplace, after all. This, at least, is my view on it. (I always cringe at canon frigates with 10,000 tons of cargo space.)
Do you want another design which addresses these issues?
_________________
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close semblance to the first."
- Attributed to General Aleksandr Kerensky
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-May-2007 20:00 Post subject: |
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| StarRaven wrote: | | Do you want another design which addresses these issues? |
If you would like to build one. As for the cannon designs, most of those have been overworked, and added to in my universe. The Vincent is still a little ship, but now it actually acts like a corvette instead of some weird cargo ship. And whose idea was it to include ridiculous crew numbers?
I can only guess that some of this looked like a better idea in BattleSpace than in AeroTech.
Edit: Also, it's not that I mind the passengers, I just didn't know what they were there for.
_________________
Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5792
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-May-2007 23:44 Post subject: |
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| CO_17thRecon wrote: |
Vagabond's Design:
It's a massive ship, in terms of carrying people. This is its greatest benefit, because it eliminates needing a dropship for that. Also, it can carry dropships, jump, and defend itself passably well, though the armor is thin. It carries a good amount of cargo and spare parts as well (which eliminates the cargo dropship). Somewhat unfortunately, it doesn't mount enough escape pods/life boats for 100% capacity.
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I actually calculated the escape pods to exactly 50 percent. However, the room space on the Warship is actually optional. It is the exact number of rooms and people carried on 4 Overlord dropships minus four [captains.] This feature was long considered before being implemented. But I figured that as a Merc unit it would be nice for everyone to have a room on the Warship as well. When these individuals are removed and placed back on the Dropships, you get over 100 percent escape pods.
| wrote: |
It carries a great deal of marines, which seems odd to me, given that the ship is not meant (judging from the armor), nor really capable of being used in an offensive manner (again, armor). The marines could use the small craft to attack and take over another ship, but only if it was distracted, and not blowing up the Ares.
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The Marines serve two purposes: Anti-Pirate and Security. They are their to keep order among the crew members.
The armor is equal to that of the Zechetinu, which is considered a Corvette. Mainly, the Warship is more designed to escort the Droships and fight Assault Dropships. It can engage Warships, but it is not advised.
| wrote: |
It carries far more crew than required. I understand this is likely due to maintenance issues, being able to provide 100% for the ship. But you can generally get by with 30% or so unless you're in heavy combat. And then, you really need a repair facility, since there is only so much you can do in space, yeah?
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I imagined this more as a mobile HQ. Which meant that the ship needs to be able to operate for long durations away from repair facilities. I can reduce the support to 30 percent, but it is not advised.
| wrote: |
To sum up, Vagabond's Ares is a nice transport, other than perhaps the safety issue, which is the most pressing one I think. The marines are at little superfluous, but whatever floats your boat. Overall, the only problem I see is the class of ship it claims to be. It acts more like a transport than a corvette, given its lack of power in battle. (Not that corvettes are very strong, but...)
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Since the Ares is based off many of the same elements as the Zechetinu which is also a Corvette, I called it a Corvette.
| wrote: |
Oh well, things I have learned thus far about Warship construction:
2) I can't think of any good reason to use standard PPCs or ER PPCs. ER LLAS and LLAS have functionally the same damage and range in small bays, and weigh less and generate lower heat.
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Other then exploiting the rounding rule, Ya there is no reason.
| wrote: |
3) Large pulse lasers make good anti-fighter weapons, due to their combination of range, damage, and pulse abilities.
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As the SPL is to TW [Anti-Infantry on par with the MG] the LPL is to AT2. Except for range limitations... its perfect.
| wrote: |
5) Surprisingly, docking collars are expensive equipment.
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It is the fact that the docking collar comes equipped with a mechanism that is very delicate and expensive that ties the dropship into the jump drive. Without it, a jumpship cannot transport a dropship safely. In fact, both will likely come out on the other side looking like something out of the 'Philadelphia project' and explode if it arrives at all.
| wrote: |
10) AR10 launchers are fun. Fire torpedo!
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Especially when you add the fact that they get free crit chances even if they don't exceed the armor threshold.
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-May-2007 00:15 Post subject: |
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| Vagabond wrote: | | I actually calculated the escape pods to exactly 50 percent. However, the room space on the Warship is actually optional. It is the exact number of rooms and people carried on 4 Overlord dropships minus four [captains.] This feature was long considered before being implemented. But I figured that as a Merc unit it would be nice for everyone to have a room on the Warship as well. When these individuals are removed and placed back on the Dropships, you get over 100 percent escape pods. |
Interesting logic. I see the use, for sure. But I wonder if it is possible to get everyone to the dropships in a hurry? Then again, it's not really possible to get everyone to a lifeboat in that big a hurry, is it? I need the AeroTech warship rules. As much as I enjoy the game, I do play with an amalgamation of what I have, and BattleSpace at the moment.
| Vagabond wrote: | | The Marines serve two purposes: Anti-Pirate and Security. They are their to keep order among the crew members. |
Again, I see the point. But I sincerely hope that my men can keep the peace amongst themselves.
| Vagabond wrote: | | The armor is equal to that of the Zechetinu, which is considered a Corvette. Mainly, the Warship is more designed to escort the Droships and fight Assault Dropships. It can engage Warships, but it is not advised. |
Noted, and I think the logic is fine. But that limits the use when my main purpose is to give the group something fun to do during fleet battles. Thus, the ship needs to succeed on one of two possible criteria.
1) Being of low enough monetary and personnel worth as to be worth risking.
OR
2) To be tough enough to survive, if perhaps "lose" an encounter with a superior house naval fleet. Superior in either number, size, or both.
I guess the criteria for my own unit's ship are somewhat more restrictive than above. You could say the contest is starting to experience "scope crawl". Erf. That being said, I'm still trying to figure out what a mercenary warship might look like. When something is so ungodly expensive, it's hard to imagine a cheaper, not quite as good version. So, instead, I seem to have latched onto the idea of small ships with minimal maintenance and crew requirements. If the outlay is still huge, at least I can make the recurring payments smaller.
I guess, given the scope creep and my hazy criteria, I should disband the idea of a contest, if I ever used that word in this thread... *checks* Alas, I did. Well, allow me to repurpose this thread as to more of a technical discussion of mercenary warship design and suggestions. Or, at least it will be so long as this thread attracts people for me to talk to. Given this, my thoughts on posted designs will likely appear more quickly.
| Vagabond wrote: | | Other then exploiting the rounding rule, Ya there is no reason. |
While I weep a bit for the bit of my soul that died due to this munchkinism, please see rule two above. I won't lie... I intend for my unit to have the most overpowered, scrutinized, and engineered to perfection ship I can design.
Because they will have one, and it will be small. The House Navies will have many, and they will come in all sizes and configurations. While the ship will stand no chance of fighting a Yamato or Durandal, it must at least have some chance of survival, whether through skillful sniping, or just thick armor and putting the pedal down.
Ideally, I have three choices for battle based on what is going on.
1) Stand and fight. Assuming the enemy is roughly my size, and roughly close to me in terms of engineering, I can fight him.
2) Run. I can match the speed of any warship currently in production, hopefully. So long as he is currently out of weapon range, he will remain that way. Otherwise, I am forced into situation 1. The Impavido destroyer, and a couple of other similar designs scare me like that. Like the Kirishima cruiser.
3) Support. If I am in a large battle, with a friendly fleet supporting me, I can hang back, fight some of the opposing small fry, and take potshots at the big boys when possible. Probably all while trying to take out their fighters.
| Vagabond wrote: | | Especially when you add the fact that they get free crit chances even if they don't exceed the armor threshold. |
This I did not know. That makes them doubly precious now.
_________________
Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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