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tom kazansky
Federated Suns
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Joined: 11-Jan-2007 00:00
Posts: 39
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 Posted: 28-Aug-2007 10:24 Post subject: Why do so many mechs look so stupid in the TRs? |
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| Is it just me, or do mechs that look awesome in MechWarrior 4 look really lame in the Technical Readouts? The Hauptmann, Dragon, Ryoken, Kodiak and Black Knight look badass in MechWarrior but in the Technical Readouts they look like they were drawn by a third-rate anime artist. Come to think of it, a lot of mechs in the TRs look really dumb. The Wyvern looks like C3PO, the Wyvern IIC and Hunchback look like transformers, the Black Knight looks like Samus from Metriod, the Urbanmech looks like a trashcan, and the Imp looks like a big trashcan. And of course there's mechs that just look gay as hell like the Katana, Annihilator, and Stalker. Are the artists at Microsoft just that much better than the ones at the old FASA?
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 28-Aug-2007 11:49 Post subject: |
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TRO 3050 and 3055 were made with the crappiest artwork EVAR (yes I do know how to write ever  )! Even the cad drawings of clan machines. Some improvement had been made in artwork quality in the upgrades, but the original shape was already turned to minis, so it remained (making new forms was probably too expensive). The change of shape met only the designs that had legal issues, that's why there was the project Phoenix (although I'm not sure why there are two Longbows - Phoenix and 3058U).
MechWarrior games had the models redone, but I like many paper drawings much more. Most of them actually. The Black Knight is, well, bad.
Many 'Mechs WERE stolen from anime, like Gundam, etc. and the rest was made to match them, that't why they looklikethy do.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5788
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Aug-2007 13:55 Post subject: Re: Why do so many mechs look so stupid in the TRs? |
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| tom kazansky wrote: | | the Urbanmech looks like a trashcan, |
oh no.
he just dissed the urby.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Aug-2007 22:12 Post subject: |
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Actually the original TRO 3050 and 3055 had decent enough art, a lot better then any thing done by Plog, who graced us with his undersized mechs that looked better as battlearmor, but Plog could take other peoples work and redo it very well to fit the new must be 100% FP or WK owned art work...
Loose and the rest weren't that bad and they actually made things look to scale and decent enough.
One area they killed was the Warships, in the original 2750 the warships had that ship look to them and fit what could be said to be a future spaceship, the redrawing of these for 3057 TRO sucked.
The revised TR3050 and 3025 and 3055 all had very crappy filler artwork to replace the Unseen.
At least now the art has gotten better and less of the uber-battlearmor being past off for mechs. Now if they could do away with the Blue Flame and some of the other WoB mech artwork things would be even better.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 29-Aug-2007 04:47 Post subject: |
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Umm I usually pick 3050 revised (a gathering of the other than unseen machines and 2075 TROs) the pics made by Loose are still on top of what as done for BT art. I can't recall any of those in original 3050 TRO, only more detailed, but otherwise terrible variations of what was seen later, depicting the older stuff with diferent appendage positions (usually deformed).
Can you point me to undersized 'Mech pics made by Plog (just the design names, I thin that I can dig it up in my posessions)?
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
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Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Aug-2007 05:33 Post subject: |
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| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | Umm I usually pick 3050 revised (a gathering of the other than unseen machines and 2075 TROs) the pics made by Loose are still on top of what as done for BT art. I can't recall any of those in original 3050 TRO, only more detailed, but otherwise terrible variations of what was seen later, depicting the older stuff with diferent appendage positions (usually deformed).
Can you point me to undersized 'Mech pics made by Plog (just the design names, I thin that I can dig it up in my posessions)? |
Sure open TRO3060 and TRO3067.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 29-Aug-2007 08:11 Post subject: Re: Why do so many mechs look so stupid in the TRs? |
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| Vagabond wrote: | | tom kazansky wrote: | | the Urbanmech looks like a trashcan, |
oh no.
he just dissed the urby. |
No He didn't. He spoke the truth. The Urbie does look like a walking trashcan.
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A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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tom kazansky
Federated Suns
Private, First Class
Joined: 11-Jan-2007 00:00
Posts: 39
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| Posted: 29-Aug-2007 10:52 Post subject: |
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| Karagin wrote: | | Sleeping Dragon wrote: | Umm I usually pick 3050 revised (a gathering of the other than unseen machines and 2075 TROs) the pics made by Loose are still on top of what as done for BT art. I can't recall any of those in original 3050 TRO, only more detailed, but otherwise terrible variations of what was seen later, depicting the older stuff with diferent appendage positions (usually deformed).
Can you point me to undersized 'Mech pics made by Plog (just the design names, I thin that I can dig it up in my posessions)? |
Sure open TRO3060 and TRO3067. |
Yeah I hear what your saying Karagin. I have TRO 3060 and there's a bunch of mechs in there where the guns look way too big as well as looking just like battle armor suits as you said. The Tai-Sho and Yu Huang come to mind. Hell, on the Yu Huang the AC/20 in its arm looks so big I don't know how it can realistically hold more than one shot.
TRO 3067 has some good mech drawings though like the Templar, Mad Cat Mk. II and Saggitaire. The Templar and Mad Cat are so cool looking it would be hard to mess those up though.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 29-Aug-2007 11:29 Post subject: |
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Well, neither Tai-Sho, nor Yu-Huang were drawn by Plog (he made only clan 'Mechs and vehicles, which are those that should receive criticism, and not only those made by Plog IMO), but I think that it would fall on 3067 clan TROs.
Of those the Blood Kite (this one's really bad), Arcas, Savage Coyote and Crimson Langur have some inclination to look like weird BA because of Plog's tendency to draw short thick legs. Pinion may be just a little strange because of chosen perspective. I just wonder whether Plog wasn't actually asked to draw huge guns placed on tough looking chassis with some disrespect to mechanics just to draw in more youngsters, who like anime robots because his works in 3060 clan 'Mechs had much less exaggerated features...
Still, neither of depicted machines in 3067 and 3060 seems undersized to, so please can you point me to one of those?
And to Urbie. Sure that it's barrel shaped and ugly, but no one EVER said that it's nimble, we always hear only about simplicity of construction and toughness, with which the barrel shape fits well. Holy Handgranade also doesn't look that dangerous
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
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Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-Aug-2007 08:44 Post subject: |
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You named most of the ones that look like they should be battlearmor instead of mechs and then look at the battlearmor he (Plog) has drawn, it looks even hokier then the mech artwork.
And yes I know art is objective and no one will always agree that some is excellent or bad, but in a media where the artwork is 70% of selling point, you need to have better and not mediocre.
Plog should have been tasked with his area of strong points, most of his vehicles are decent enough, and his reworking of older art to fit the new "must be drawn in house" format is decent, but he should not be doing new art for the new the mechs.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 30-Aug-2007 10:04 Post subject: |
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Actually I find most of vees in CBT horrible (sorry, but having a cockpit that would plow any uneven terrain feature is not a good idea IMO - Ares, Challenger X, ... And I know that the Ishtar is based on this, but there were good reason NOT to make vehicles this way).
If you look at animal anatomy the super-heavy bodies are supported by the same type of legs as are on Plog's drawings, just look at giant herbivore dinosaurs. The problem is that with the increasing weight you need much thicker skeleton to support the weight, so there is some logic behind this IMO. And to BA, just try to imagine a human inside.
Golem for example follows typical clan construction. Just remember that Kanazuchi, may look less bulky, but it is equipped with cockpit, while Golem still works like an ordinary armor wrapped around massive elemental trooper. No wonder that it looks impossibly fat, it has enough armor to survive AC/20 hit. And nowhere it's written that it can do the same type of acrobatics that the standard elementals are expected to execute. Just try to imagine how the trooper is placed inside and many BAs will suddenly look more reasonable.
I think that the best thing would be if all the drawings were made in context to something ordinary with well known size. Kanazuchi for example would be by two heads taller than Golem and by three taller than an Elemental IMO.
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[Last edited by Sleeping Dragon on 31-Aug-2007 03:31; edited 1 time in total]
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tom kazansky
Federated Suns
Private, First Class
Joined: 11-Jan-2007 00:00
Posts: 39
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| Posted: 30-Aug-2007 11:16 Post subject: |
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Sleeping Dragon, your comparison of battlemech leg build to dinosaur legs is, quite frankly, illogical and ridiculous. The advanced materials battlemechs are contructed from are obviously much stronger than a dinosaur's muscle and bone and thus do not have to be the same thickness to support the same weight. The same concept applies to buildings. Skyscrapers with a steel skeleton could be built much taller than old brick framed buildings and didn't need to have a large base to support the structure.
By the way, I thought I'd mention what I personally thought are the best and worst looking mechs:
Best:
Templar
Mad Cat
Old Marauder
Daishi
Cauldron-Born
Worst:
Annihilator
Urbanmech
Imp
Katana
Kintaro
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 30-Aug-2007 12:42 Post subject: |
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Your choice of bad looking 'Mechs is not surprising at all, and for the good looking I always had problems with the Dire Wolf, because it displays the lower arm actuators that it can't have as an AC wielding omni.
The fact is that bone is actually able to support more than you think, but I was just giving an example of the way of thinking. Needless to say trying to imagine an atlas with Commando legs produces results in silly things, but even worse than the massive legs on Savage Coyote. 'Mechs are also moving objects without solid foundation in the earth like the skyscraper. Buildings also aren't built to run and crush to another building, 'Mechs do that regularly. Stability would be much better with large legs and the center of weight closer to ground than with 'Mech standing on pins. It's quite possible that Plog starts the 'Mech with torso and then adds legs (which are hard to draw) and when he makes massive torso, he needs the legs that would look like they can support the weight. He doesn't have to do such things while drawing, it can happen when he plays with imagination, trying to give some look to the stats. Look at several 'Mech drawings and try to tell which machine would best maintain stability even under fire.
Urbanmech - Ugly? Sure, but try to move it with it's statue formed not unlike that of a Sumo wrestler. Thick legs with big feet installed on sides of barrel-like torso. This is a mountain that can't be pushed around easily. Original Marauder also falls to this category IMO.
Clint - Nimble and made to be constantly on the move. Stability would be comparable to average human.
Stalker - Can anyone explain how this barrel placed on two pricks manages to walk, or even stand upright? Ballet-dancer doesn't belong to firefight
There are quite a few machines that are criticised for having too small legs if compared to the rest of the chassis (I think that the Turkina belongs to these and look at the old Black Python (Viper) from TRO 3055) and I wouldn't be surprised if the artists were informed about such comments and tried to avoid doing the mistake again. I think that it's possible that over-sized legs will be also avoided in future works.
Is it just me or does anyone else think that the artist in TROs 3060 and 3067 were encouraged to make their own style. Plog for example made only clan tech things, which had similar effect to the cad/drawing effect in 3050 TRO. Giving the clan technology a chance to develop it's own visual style, which would be different from the IS technologies. I would also like to know whether there weren't some voices calling for drawings that would unite the style made for [url='www.gearsonline.net/btech/mechs.php']japanese battletech[/url], so the TRO would have better sales on Asian markets.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
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Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 30-Aug-2007 18:32 Post subject: |
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| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | I wouldn't be surprised if the artists were informed about such comments and tried to avoid doing the mistake again. I think that it's possible that over-sized legs will be also avoided in future works.
Is it just me or does anyone else think that the artist in TROs 3060 and 3067 were encouraged to make their own style. Plog for example made only clan tech things, which had similar effect to the cad/drawing effect in 3050 TRO. Giving the clan technology a chance to develop it's own visual style, which would be different from the IS technologies. I would also like to know whether there weren't some voices calling for drawings that would unite the style made for [url='www.gearsonline.net/btech/mechs.php']japanese battletech[/url], so the TRO would have better sales on Asian markets. |
I doubt very much if they even care one bit about what we the fans say about the art. If they did, then Plog would not have been drawing more mechs, yet he was and has, Loose and the artist from original TROs would have been brought back etc... If they also listened to us about the artwork then we would see better art work in the source books not 4 different styles in the same book.
Market sales are their only way to push things, so it's possible they aimed a lot of this for Asian markets, big hunky robot look is the anime style or the ninja with armor look either way you have at least gotten the niche down. Also as was said earlier a lot of this is aimed at young kids ala Power Rangers and other such "robot" fads...and given that we now have the Transformer movie out, I think we see a move to more "rough" edged looking mechs that would be better seen in RIFTS or other similar games then BT...
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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tom kazansky
Federated Suns
Private, First Class
Joined: 11-Jan-2007 00:00
Posts: 39
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| Posted: 30-Aug-2007 20:47 Post subject: |
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Are we all in agreement that MechWarrior 4 is the pinnacle of BattleTech art then? I certainly believe so. All the mechs in that game are depicted as the realistic-looking walking tanks that I always thought they should be.
I also have the old BattleTech box with the Warhammer on it and it has the same look - realistic, utilitarian, and tough. Although I never understood why it had a searchlight though, you would think an advanced war machine with a fusion reactor and lasers would be equiped with something better than an electric light bolted to it's shoulder...
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