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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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 Posted: 03-Jan-2008 13:21 Post subject: Ammo placement |
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The post on XL engines reminded me of an ongoing question of ammunition placment.
In the past, I have happily designed mechs with ammo stored in the CT. Other players reacted with horror- why?
In level 1, or with IS XL engines in level 2, an ammo explosion is essentially a death sentence for the mech no matter where it's placed, unless the bin is nearly empty. Filling a slot in a side torso with ammo then leaving 11 empty slots seems far more dangerous than burying the ammo deep within the torso.
I wouldn't store ammo there in a Clan mech, or a Lvl 2 with a standard engine, but in lvl 1 or with an IS XL, surely the CT one of the safest locations.
Is this horror just an automatic reaction from people used to CASE?
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-Jan-2008 15:57 Post subject: Ammo placement |
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If you have a standard engine and CASE, put it in an arm or torso. If it's an XL, put it wherever you please, but remember CASE. CASE will ensure the 'Mech is crippled, but salvageable. No matter what though, ammo explosions are pretty crippling, so even if you can "survive" the explosion, you won't be in much shape to fight it out from there on out. Your biggest concern is protecting most of the 'Mech so you can salvage and repair it.
One thing I learned the hard way...never put ammo in legs. People will suddenly love to kick you.
A question I've been kicking around...since CASE allows the internal structure to be damaged to complete ruin but does not allow it to transfer, does CASE in the center torso trump the rule that 'Mechs who lose a center torso by ammo explosion cannot be salvaged? I should think so personally...you still have that catastrophic damage of course, but at least the 'Mech could be repaired, given time and tools. However, if the answer is no, CASE in the center torso is a waste of funds.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 04-Jan-2008 04:52 Post subject: Ammo placement |
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If you use floating crits rules (level 3) then having ammo in CT isn't any better than having it elsewhere, but under standard rules a roll 2 on hit-location table automatically sends a crit in CT no matter how thick armour you have (side torsos aren't hit that often this way) This makes you even more vulnerable to LB guns and SRMs.
If your ammo bin isn't full (In battle it happens often with a few exceptions, but for smaller weapons I think that there was an useful optional rule in First Strike. Ammo bins could be only half-filled... not that you need rules to do that unless you play some official tournament) you can often survive an explosion of ammo elsewhere but in CT it's still almost certain death.
And there is another way around the armour - heat.
Ammo explosions are deadly anywhere, but placing ammo to CT seems like an unnecessary risk. That's why I avoid putting ammo there.
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 04-Jan-2008 10:10 Post subject: Ammo placement |
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Well, I don’t actually _like_ storing ammo in the CT, but I don’t feel that’s it’s invariably a horrible choice.
I guess my point of view is based on the idea that, for many mechs, having an ammo explosion is so crippling that there’s little point in trying to keep it in the fight if an explosion does occur. So, for some designs (Lvl 1 mostly), I’d rather minimize the chances of having an explosion than mitigate the effects if it does happen.
The best example is probably the old JM6-S Jaegermech. Low armor and lots of internal structure means lots of potential crits. Low heat weapons mean that heat-induced explosions are unlikely. It has plenty of ammo, so its opponent can usually open a few holes long before the ammo runs low. So which is more dangerous- the bin in the center, or the bins in the side torsos? A critical roll in the CT has a 1 in 11 chance of setting off the bin (and a 100% chance of damaging something absolutely vital). A critical hit roll to a side torso has a 50-50 chance of igniting the bin. If only one or two shots are left, there may be enough mech left to leave the field under its own power, for what that’s worth. More than that, and you’re looking at scrap.
If it weren’t for heat-induced explosions, the safest place to store ammo (for the mech as a whole, if not the mechwarrior) would be the head. For fluff reasons, if nothing else, this would probably be a bad idea, but it could work for some designs (Hunchback IIC comes to mind).
Rolling a 2 on the hit location table is rare, but still a worry of course. But side torsos are also vulnerable to this, even without using floating crit rules.
CASE can be used with IS XL’s to make the mech salvageable, and those fat IS double heat sinks are wonderful for absorbing criticals that might hit ammo, so the CT placement is less useful after 3050.
I think the best ammo placement (if there is such a thing) is heavily dependent on the rest of the design (and possibly fluff). Even the head or legs could be reasonable, in the right circumstances.
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
Administrator
Joined: 03-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 6085
Location: United States
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| Posted: 04-Jan-2008 12:07 Post subject: Ammo placement |
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The main advantage of having ammo in the CT is you have 11 other slots to soak up the damage. The fact that snake-eyes gives an extra chance for a crit with standard rules makes me say load one of the side torso ups with equipment and place it there. Same 1 in 12 shot at hitting it but less chance of a crit. If you are using the floating crit as SD indicated, then the CT is just as good a place as any.
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 04-Jan-2008 13:19 Post subject: Ammo placement |
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How about the head? yeah is a munch thing to do and I do not think most pilots like to sit on top of bombs but it is an idea?
Simple if I have little to nothing in the sides I put in the center, but if a lot in the sides I put it there. But a lot of the designs I do are thought either in terms of art and looks, or the base idea.
So if I have an SRM in each torso I can see the ammo being in the CT easily. But both SRM are in the right arm then the ammo would be in the RT. I could right CT but then I would add fluff to justify or show the problems.
Ammo is just a liability. In 3025 it does not matter at all. But in 3050 better for the torsos and give it CASE. Then then the Mech is out but not destroyed.
AWAD- But if you are a Kuritian bugger the CASE and give more firepower
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 04-Jan-2008 15:27 Post subject: Ammo placement |
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If you have CASE in CT the mech will still be unsalvagable in the event of a ammo boom big enough to wipe out all the internal structure. The structure in the CT is the core of the unit. As long as it remains intact the unit can still be rebuilt. When the core structure is destroyed, especially by a large internal explosion, all the surrounding parts are now unsupported and will collapse as a building whose frame has suffered a critical failure.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 05-Jan-2008 08:47 Post subject: Ammo placement |
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Whenever you crit CT you produce a problem. Normally you either hit gyro (movement problem) or engine (overheat). With ammo in the location you just add an auto-destruction system, which may be set of at random and even if it isn't hit the risk of 'Mech loss is increased. With gyro the falls are more likely, but the possibility of interaction between this and ammo is minimal (CT may be crited in case you fall on weaker rear armour). With heat it may be a different story, especially without DHSs. Not to mention that I can't find a reason why would anyone place anything that can detonate if heated enough under the main reactor (source of heat).
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 06-Jan-2008 17:50 Post subject: Ammo placement |
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SD- light mech, weak armor, one ton ammo. Best place for it is in one of the CT crits because other areas of the mech are:
A: empty.
B: paper armor makes crits highly likely.
C: CT is last to go before destruction.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 07-Jan-2008 03:31 Post subject: Ammo placement |
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Lighter 'Mechs may be an exception (still depends on circumstances), but generally it's a bad idea.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4899
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Jan-2008 13:18 Post subject: Ammo placement |
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I knew a guy who always put ammo in the head. He said that if he had to go, he'd go with a bang.
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Sir Henry
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
Administrator
Joined: 03-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Jan-2008 22:37 Post subject: Re: Ammo placement |
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| Sir Henry wrote: | | I knew a guy who always put ammo in the head. He said that if he had to go, he'd go with a bang. |
If you aren't playing a campaign, it isn't that big a deal. If you're in a campaign type game, then head ammo is insane. 
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