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ATN082268
Clan Snow Raven
Point Commander
Joined: 26-Jul-2013 05:51
Posts: 26
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 Posted: 27-Jul-2013 04:57 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Type/Model: Dreadnought III
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3072
Config: Tracked Vehicle
Rules: Level 3, Custom design
Mass: 170 tons
Power Plant: 340 VOX Fusion
Cruise Speed: 21.6 km/h
Maximum Speed: 32.4 km/h
Armor Type: Hvy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
1 Gauss Rifle
1 Arrow IV System
2 SRM 6s
2 ER Medium Lasers
2 Anti-Missile Systems
1 Angel ECM Suite
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Dreadnought III
Mass: 170 tons
Construction Options: Fractional Accounting
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 85 pts Standard 0 34.00
Engine: 340 Fusion 0 27.00
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 13.50
Cruise MP: 2
Flank MP: 3
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 8.50
Crew: 12 Members 0 .00
Turret Equipment: 0 3.00
Sponson Turret Equipment: 0 .90
Armor Factor: 595 pts Hvy Ferro-Fibrous 3 29.99
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 17 100
Front L / R Sides: 17 90/90
Rear L / R Sides: 17 80/80
Rear: 17 75
Turret: 17 80
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Gauss Rifle Turret 0 24 2 18.00
1 Arrow IV System Turret 0 20 2 19.00
1 SRM 6 Lf_Spon 0 15 2 4.00
1 ER Medium Laser Lf_Spon 5 1 1.00
1 Anti-Missile System Lf_Spon 0 15 2 1.75
1 SRM 6 Rt_Spon 0 15 1 4.00
1 ER Medium Laser Rt_Spon 5 1 1.00
1 Anti-Missile System Rt_Spon 0 15 1 1.75
1 Angel ECM Suite Body 0 1 2.00
1 C.A.S.E. Equipment Body 1 .50
Cargo Bay Capacity Body 1 .11
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 10 18 170.00
Items & Tons Left: 21 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 23,211,899 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,425
Cost per BV: 16,289.05
Weapon Value: 2,461 / 2,461 (Ratio = 1.73 / 1.73)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 45; MRDmg = 28; LRDmg = 19
BattleForce2: MP: 2, Armor/Structure: 0 / 23
Damage PB/M/L: 6/6/4, Overheat: 0
Class: GA; Point Value: 14
Specials: ecm, artA
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jul-2013 08:17 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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ATN the larger vehicles don't work in the game as well as you thinking. This same tank can be built on a smaller chassis, yes it would have less of something but it would be cheaper and likely see the light of day. The limited range of the ECM you picked means you have to be damn near on top of other side for it to work. ECM in the game doesn't work in the manner of you have it and it effects things it has a range if the other side is not in range and the LOS of the system doesn't cross the range then you don't get the benefits. Not the best system in the game and one they keep ignoring.
Here is your vehicle rebuilt into something that is faster, and cheaper and smaller:
| Code: | BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Type/Model: Manhanlder
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3060
Config: Tracked Vehicle
Rules: Level 3, Standard design
Mass: 100 tons
Power Plant: 300 Light Fusion
Cruise Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Armor Type: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
1 Gauss Rifle
1 Arrow IV System
2 ER Medium Lasers
2 SRM 6s
1 Angel ECM Suite
2 Anti-Missile Systems
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Manhanlder
Mass: 100 tons
Construction Options: Fractional Accounting
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 50 pts Standard 0 10.00
Engine: 300 Light Fusion 1 14.25
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 7.13
Cruise MP: 3
Flank MP: 5
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 5.00
Crew: 7 Members 0 .00
Turret Equipment: 0 2.30
Armor Factor: 238 pts Ferro-Fibrous 2 13.28
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 10 55
Left / Right Sides: 10 50/50
Rear: 10 28
Turret: 10 55
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Gauss Rifle Turret 0 16 2 17.00
1 Arrow IV System Front 0 10 2 17.00
2 ER Medium Lasers Turret 10 2 2.00
2 SRM 6s Turret 0 15 3 7.00
1 Angel ECM Suite Body 0 1 2.00
2 Anti-Missile Systems Body 0 24 3 3.00
1 Trailer Hitch Rear 1 .00
Cargo Bay Capacity Body 1 .04
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 10 18 100.00
Items & Tons Left: 7 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 17,076,200 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,923 (old BV = 1,380)
Cost per BV: 8,879.98
Weapon Value: 1,716 / 1,716 (Ratio = .89 / .89)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 45; MRDmg = 28; LRDmg = 19
BattleForce2: MP: 3T, Armor/Structure: 0 / 10
Damage PB/M/L: 4/5/4, Overheat: 0
Class: GA; Point Value: 19
Specials: tran0, ecm, artA
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Trade of was in the armor and the use of a light fusion, but it has the same weapons and a far superior price tag. And it is in the conventional thinking of the factions of the game. Thus the Manhandler could be possible found in combat not sitting on a planet acting as a paperweight.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jul-2013 08:33 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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And with further playing around with your design and getting rid of the not needed items, I came up with this:
| Code: | BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
VALIDATED
Type/Model: Manhanlder 2
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3060
Config: Tracked Vehicle
Rules: Level 3, Standard design
Mass: 90 tons
Power Plant: 270 Light Fusion
Cruise Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Armor Type: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
1 Gauss Rifle
1 Arrow IV System
2 ER Medium Lasers
1 SRM 6
2 Anti-Missile Systems
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Manhanlder 2
Mass: 90 tons
Construction Options: Fractional Accounting
Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 45 pts Standard 0 9.00
Engine: 270 Light Fusion 1 10.88
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 5.44
Cruise MP: 3
Flank MP: 5
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 4.50
Crew: 6 Members 0 .00
Turret Equipment: 0 2.00
Armor Factor: 263 pts Ferro-Fibrous 2 14.68
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 9 55
Left / Right Sides: 9 55/55
Rear: 9 43
Turret: 9 55
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Gauss Rifle Turret 0 16 2 17.00
1 Arrow IV System Front 0 10 2 17.00
2 ER Medium Lasers Turret 10 2 2.00
1 SRM 6 Turret 0 15 2 4.00
2 Anti-Missile Systems Body 0 24 3 3.00
1 C.A.S.E. Equipment Body 1 .50
1 Trailer Hitch Rear 1 .00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 10 16 90.00
Items & Tons Left: 7 .00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 12,596,240 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,811 (old BV = 1,247)
Cost per BV: 6,955.41
Weapon Value: 1,673 / 1,673 (Ratio = .92 / .92)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 39; MRDmg = 27; LRDmg = 19
BattleForce2: MP: 3T, Armor/Structure: 0 / 10
Damage PB/M/L: 4/4/4, Overheat: 0
Class: GA; Point Value: 18
Specials: artA
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Dropping the Angel and one of the SRM6 launchers I was able to shave another 10 tons off of the other Manhandler thus ATN here is your overall design on a 90 ton frame again far cheaper and again more likely to be found in use by the factions in the game.
But on a Serious note, have you ever played Steve Jackson's ORGRE? They have it as GURPS game as well where you can build your own vehicles and such for it. I think you might like it and should give it a try. It is a good fund game with super tanks taking on everything and normally wining.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 27-Jul-2013 18:38 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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I have to ask what do you hope to achieve with this vehicle?
_________________
The dragon NEVER sleeps!
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Jul-2013 21:24 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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I am not sure what ATN wants to achive with his 200 ton tanks, my point was his vehicle can be built on a smaller frame for far less cost and actually might see the light off day by actually being used by one of the factions in the game.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 28-Jul-2013 01:17 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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I'm asking because I'd like to know what the vehicle does so well that it justifies it's existence.
I understand the reasons to build tanks above 50 tons. A well made heavy tank can have a blend of speed, firepower and armour to be useful, but the more you get closer to 100 tons the more you start to see attempts at semi-mobile pillboxes or tanks that use hyperexpensive components to stay reasonably mobile (Heimdall, Di Morgan, Gürteltier). superheavy tanks are just even more so.
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The dragon NEVER sleeps!
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5781
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Jul-2013 03:40 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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Karagin, I think you underestimate the usefulness of ECM in the game with all the optional rules.
The Mekwars server I play on uses all the ECM rules as well as all the ECM systems. Angle blocks streak, Artemis IV and V, BAP and Bloodhound (double blind), and can put up an ecm, eccm, or ghost target field in a combination of two. Most common I see if ECM+Ghost. Can easily give a +2 to-hit for 2 tons.
So while I can see your point on super heavies, I think you've overlooked ECM.
_________________
one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Jul-2013 10:29 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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MekWars is NOT Battletech. SO comparing that to the BT board game is not proof of improved ECM rules for the real game.
And I do understand how ECM works, its one thing they almost got right, limited range and needing to be in the path of the LOS of the other side but that LOS has to work with the range of the ECM unit or wise sit be hind the hill and snipe away all day every day.
Sleeping Dragon, put your self in the place of the guy or group having to buy the weapon systems for a House, you have something like 200 planets to defend some more important then others, yet each planet feels that theirs is super important. You have a limited budget, you have to buy mechs, vehicles, infantry weapons and support as well as the supplies and parts to keep all of this running as well as the dropships to move it around. So do you dump 1/3 of your money into ONE super tank or do you buy 10 or more light, medium and heavy ones? Same for the mechs etc...that is what I am pointing out.
Then add in the slow speed, it will speed most of the game getting to the fight then what good is that? It can not react to anything moving faster then it and also give how unforgiving the to hit table is for vehicles, old or new doesn't matter, side hits and some front ones depending roll of the dice, means immobile pillbox that will die even faster.
And finally the part about helping others out with ways to improve their design which is something ATN is a bit against understanding. Each one of his super tanks can be built on smaller chassis, doing the same role, what he doesn't understand is that tanks and such are a trade off in speed, armor, weapons and size. All driven by cost and resources available. No Clan or IS power can build these and yes I am aware of the Davion super tank and to me it is more of the slap Davion down a peg or ten kind of thing, since the tables have turned and the other powers can now fight back and give FedRats a taste of their own medicine then they pull a CapCon hat trick and build something that is never going to leave the planet it is sitting on. HOW many times have you guys told myself or others hey go with the tonnage or that tonnage since it means a smaller dropship bay or you can more bang for the buck etc...same should be applying here for obvious reason.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 28-Jul-2013 10:55 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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With "above 50 tons" I meant things like the Patton, Po or Zhukov. These still have their place on the field, eventhough they certainly can't be considered mainstay units. The closer they get to 100 tons the less useful they get. Vehicles above 100 tons are pure waste unless they have some special purpose.
That's what I'm trying to say and that's why I asked about this vehicle's purpose.
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The dragon NEVER sleeps!
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Jul-2013 11:34 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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I agree with you I was giving my input on the matter and my stance as well.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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ATN082268
Clan Snow Raven
Point Commander
Joined: 26-Jul-2013 05:51
Posts: 26
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| Posted: 28-Jul-2013 11:45 Post subject: Re: Dreadnought III |
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| Karagin wrote: | | I am not sure what ATN wants to achive with his 200 ton tanks, my point was his vehicle can be built on a smaller frame for far less cost and actually might see the light off day by actually being used by one of the factions in the game. |
Cost is certainly not the sole or even primary factor to whether a unit is built in the Battletech Universe and canon examples of stuff like Lithium Fusion batteries, XL Engines, or larger sized units, etc will support this statement. Most of the smaller sized units you claim can do the same job of my larger units tend to lack, among other things, armor and ammunition endurance of the the larger design. I have used super heavy vehicles in my games, they tend to do all right but I don't field just them on my side for a battle and we make sure the Battle Value (BV) is equal for both sides. I have found Angel ECM to be useful against stuff like C3 and Artemis not only for the unit carrying it but for many supporting units as well. YMMV.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Jul-2013 12:01 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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Cost is always an issue. They also have to face an enemy that has just as advanced items or are more advanced as in the case of the IS vs the Clans. So yes cost does come in to play ATN. Do us all a favor sit down and build a company of mechs, then one of vehicles, using all canon units. You have a budget, since no one has unlimited funds, don't go over 300 million and this has to cover not only the combat units aka the mechs and tanks but the support as well, that means ammo, food, water, spare parts etc...so tell us what you get out of this.
You may not understand that so please try and build and keep a unit running and tell us if cost is not a factor. It always is a factor.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 28-Jul-2013 12:59 Post subject: Re: Dreadnought III |
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BV is a gaming mechanism meant to produce a ballanced battle. Of course if you try to build a battle force facing the other on BV only XL engines and other such stuff look all shiny, but once you try to run a simulationist game where you have a unit that you need to purchase and maintain, then you'll realize that you can achieve significantly improved results with standard units.
XL engines and other such nonstandard gadgets meant to improve performance to weight ratio for greater resource cost are here to allow concentration of resources in limited space. You have drop ships and so you try to cramp as much combat value in them because transport cost is limited. 'Mechs with these gadgets are the tools of the attacker. The defender on the other hand needs to cover multiple places and can afford to have multiple units that would cost a fortune to transport via drop ships, but are otherwise cheap and may be damaged more easily, but are easy to repair (and perhaps can be largely produced locally). Vehicles and standard tech are the favoured tools for the defender.
You try to make a superexpensive units that concentrate a ton of resources to single unit, which would make more sense for a unit that will be used by attackers, but is nigh useless as an offensive weapon due to miserable speed and abysmal terrain handling. Defensive operations are also problematic as you can sit only in one spot. Sure arty can somewhat mitigate the problem, but unless you have spotters and can funnel the attackers through single spot the attacker will probably avoid it till he is pretty close to your ward. With your speed you are not that hard to go around and you don't look like you can really kill the attacker before it causes massive damage to any object you are trying to defend. Don't even think about things like convoy protection. Ouside of scenarios where the goal is annihilation of the enemy you will probably suck with a superheavy design and even there, assuming equal BV you will have about the same chance... and standard unity will probably be cheaper.
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The dragon NEVER sleeps!
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ATN082268
Clan Snow Raven
Point Commander
Joined: 26-Jul-2013 05:51
Posts: 26
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| Posted: 28-Jul-2013 14:44 Post subject: Re: Dreadnought III |
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| Karagin wrote: | Cost is always an issue. They also have to face an enemy that has just as advanced items or are more advanced as in the case of the IS vs the Clans. So yes cost does come in to play ATN. Do us all a favor sit down and build a company of mechs, then one of vehicles, using all canon units. You have a budget, since no one has unlimited funds, don't go over 300 million and this has to cover not only the combat units aka the mechs and tanks but the support as well, that means ammo, food, water, spare parts etc...so tell us what you get out of this.
You may not understand that so please try and build and keep a unit running and tell us if cost is not a factor. It always is a factor. |
I'm not going to spend a lot of time deflating strawman and circular arguments. There are three main problems I can see in your argument right off the bat:
1. What you are proposing is putting together a force for X c-bills and not whether a particular unit gets built or not.
2. No one has claimed or implied that any house or clan has an unlimited budget. That is a strawman argument. Personally, I think the issue in building units lies more with manufacturing capacity than cost.
3. When you claim cost is an issue and then set a budget, that is a circular argument.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 28-Jul-2013 15:02 Post subject: Dreadnought III |
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Well I can see that trying to convince or help you out is not something you want from any of us. So seeing how your point of argument here is about it being circular then why do you keep building the same type of units without any improvements? And based your vehicles you have this idea that 200 ton tanks are amazing things, when it has been proven to you again, that they are not. So really it is you who are going in circles here, not the rest of us.
_________________
Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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