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Vagabond
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 Posted: 21-Dec-2013 13:57 Post subject: Battletech Wars are humane? |
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I was doing some reading and encountered this post on CBT: bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php/topic,6046.60.html.
The conversation wandered as they do and eventually got around to the scale problems with BT military to population sizes. And then this point was made:
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Well BT writers aren't the only ones strugling with the scales of interstellar empires. One can check out TVTropes for a list of examples.
Sticking with published numbers the 4th Succesion War killed 100 million and wounded 600 millions. Thats bit more than WWII and in half the time even, but the thing is in 1939 terra had about 2.3 billion people an in 3028 Inner Sphere had propably few trillion people. There are propably more traffic casualities a year in the IS than died because of the 4th SW. (And even then beacause the armied are so wery tiny a huge part of the causalities have to be civilians.) So wars as slap fights between nobles is very fitting image. |
Those numbers are hilarious when actually thought about. By shear numbers ALONE, its true more ppl will die in car accidents then will have died in the 4th SW. Even the 1st and 2nd SW overall probably pale in comparison. Yes, worlds got nuked. However, those have always been described as a hand full of key industrial or resource worlds. On aggregate, more people die in BT from car accidents then do in war.
Any thoughts?
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Sleeping Dragon
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| Posted: 21-Dec-2013 15:16 Post subject: Battletech Wars are humane? |
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Inner Sphere nations populations are incredibly small usually and their armies are absolutely not up to scale to what they could afford even with 20th century economics (and theirs is much more advanced with vastly more resources even after all the wars of succession). I'd also like to know how on terraformed planets there are oil and coal beds, when their formation takes a bit more than mere 1000 years (there should be more extensive biomass growing farms used for synthetising fuel really).
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Mordel
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2013 00:00 Post subject: Re: Battletech Wars are humane? |
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I actually laughed quite hard at this statement, as it's not something you usually expect to hear in conversation! 
| Vagabond wrote: | | Yes, worlds got nuked. |
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Vagabond
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2013 13:41 Post subject: Re: Battletech Wars are humane? |
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| Mordel wrote: | I actually laughed quite hard at this statement, as it's not something you usually expect to hear in conversation!
| Vagabond wrote: | | Yes, worlds got nuked. | |
You do when your talking to gamers lol.
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Ozzy McKinnen
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| Posted: 31-Jan-2014 07:56 Post subject: Battletech Wars are humane? |
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The interplanetary logistics of it all are also something hilarious. How many jumpships are there? One ferries a handful of dropships, then recharges for a good while? It's plain impossible to have the scale of troop movements and armies one can do on a planetary scale.
What would be the single largest operation during the 3rd/4th succession wars (by a successor state) in the amount of troop movements?
I can understand the sheer frustration leading into nuclear glassing from orbit - on a whole habitable-sized planet, a battallion searching for another playing hide and seek might go on a wild goose chase for ages. Things tend to revolve around settlements, but if a planet has been populated for a few centuries, those will likely be sprinkled everywhere.
The less famous yet more commonly followed Asshat Conventions of Warfare declare units moved off the limited board to be out of battle for this reason?
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Mordel
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| Posted: 31-Jan-2014 08:04 Post subject: Battletech Wars are humane? |
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Let's not start talking logically here! This is BattleTech remember...
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Ozzy McKinnen
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| Posted: 31-Jan-2014 10:29 Post subject: Battletech Wars are humane? |
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Succession wars ... are a state of mind? 
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skiltao
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| Posted: 31-Jan-2014 13:58 Post subject: Re: Battletech Wars are humane? |
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I think it's a mistake to say there were ever "trillions" of people in the Inner Sphere.
Figure WW2 directly killed ~2.5% of the total population of participating countries, over 68-71 months. About .036% per month.
Figure 4SW directly killed ~100 million people across the 200 worlds that changed hands, over 19 months. Using the WW2 ratio, .036% /mo, that would give those 200 worlds a total population of 14.6 billion, or an average of 73 million people per world. Assuming there are two or three inhabited planets in or near each star system marked on the maps, that would give the Inner Sphere a total population of 300-450 billion people.
279,580 tanks were built in WW2, or about 2000 per month per billion people.
Suppose the Inner Sphere built 2,700 'Mechs and 8,100 tanks in 3025, and suppose their tanks are half as effective as 'Mechs. 'Mechs are said to be worth a battalion of 20th Century tanks, which would mean the Inner Sphere built 50-150 WW2-tank equivalents per month per billion people. Inner Sphere manufacturing would then be 1/20 as efficient as WW2 Earth.
That doesn't seem unreasonable, given that they're shipping stuff between stars instead of between cities.
| Ozzy McKinnen wrote: | | What would be the single largest operation during the 3rd/4th succession wars (by a successor state) in the amount of troop movements? |
Nearly 100 jumpships and more than 300 dropships were used to deliver all eight Crucis Lancer RCTs (320 Aerospace fighters, 800 'Mechs, 1200 tanks, 29000 infantrymen) for the Battle of Tikonov. They were opposed by 6 'Mech regiments plus 80 militia regiments (probably 650 'Mechs, 1900 tanks, 170000 infantrymen).
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Vagabond
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| Posted: 01-Feb-2014 08:03 Post subject: Battletech Wars are humane? |
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www.sarna.net/wiki/User:Revanche/Population_Growth_and_BattleTech
an interesting article. According to it, official numbers say about 7 trillion people. It makes a good argument for a total population of 500 to 600 billion.
As for the maps, the BT maps ONLY list inhabited systems. Each of the listed systems has 1 or more viable (survivable) worlds.
Where do you get your #s for the attack on Tikonov? Only thing I have found says 55 Jumpers and ~200 Droppers.
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skiltao
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| Posted: 01-Feb-2014 15:24 Post subject: Battletech Wars are humane? |
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A Heinlein character once said "there must be in excess of two thousand colonized planets, in excess of five hundred billion people." I would not be surprised if the Inner Sphere were originally modeled on that figure. Small populations are evident throughout FASA's stuff at least through the early '90s; "trillions" doesn't become official until the last years of FASA.
I quite like that post you linked. I wish it went more into how "Carrying Capacity" would be distributed across different worlds. (I assume low capacities would be more common than high capacities.) Plus, "inhabited" is a fuzzy term here- the old House Steiner sourcebook specifically excludes some populations as "too small or too private," and the old House Kurita sourcebook claims only one "inhabited" planet per star system while the Davion & Liao sourcebooks claim several inhabited worlds per system.
Ship numbers are from The NAIS Fourth Succession War Military Atlas Volume 1. I don't know if this really is the biggest battle in the 3rd/4th Succession War, but it's the one I hear people mention most often.
The Crucis troop numbers are based on the old House Davion sourcebook and assume normal (108 'Mech) regiments. (Defending troops are described in general terms in NAIS:4SW Military Atlas Vol1... I think I left some troops out. Should probably be 120 Aerospace fighters, 650 'Mechs, 2200 tanks, 180000 infantrymen.)
Where did you see 55 Jumpers & 200 Droppers? I'm at a loss for where else to look.
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Vagabond
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| Posted: 01-Feb-2014 18:10 Post subject: Re: Battletech Wars are humane? |
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| skiltao wrote: | | Where did you see 55 Jumpers & 200 Droppers? I'm at a loss for where else to look. |
I don't have those books, so my numbers are from an online search... which was meager.
speck2900.tripod.com/Battle_of_Tikonov.htm
Thus why I was curious if there was more official numbers.
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Ozzy McKinnen
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| Posted: 02-Feb-2014 10:29 Post subject: Battletech Wars are humane? |
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| The pity about Battletech history is that it's scrambled all over several smaller sourcebooks. A compendium on rules has readily been published, though I guess it doesn't have equal profit prospects to publish (or even gather) such a compendium/series?
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Sleeping Dragon
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| Posted: 02-Feb-2014 13:49 Post subject: Battletech Wars are humane? |
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Uncertain history supports the world IMO, as it fuels debates and allows everyone to have the BTverse they like. More lively world is good.
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