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Kraken
Federated Suns
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 Posted: 24-Jul-2014 12:05 Post subject: D&D Scenario Idea |
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Got to thinking about this last night.
A powerful wizard hires the party to help him deal with a rogue spell-caster. The spell-caster is experimenting with ways to go between realities, but the method the spell-caster has found involves swapping places with someone from that reality for the duration of his visit. This has caused the realm between realities to become unstable, and so the party must deal with the spell-caster while the wizard and his buddies try to fix the damage.
The party has two ways to force the spell-caster back: either kill the most recent person he's brought through, or somehow send the person back. If that happens, then it should reverse the spell and make the spell-caster appear.
Thing is:
1. The person who the party encounters will be someone so annoying or repulsive that the party will be far more likely to kill them than help them get back. (For example, think someone like Bernie Madoff.)
2. The spell-caster will return the moment the person is dead.
3. They will return on the exact spot where the person died.
As a result, the party will not have a chance to recover any spells used in killing the person, and if characters closed to melee range then they cannot hop back without risking an attack of opportunity... which risk they might have to take if the party casters need to pop off area-of-effect spells.
How's it sound?
Thanks.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
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| Posted: 25-Jul-2014 13:52 Post subject: D&D Scenario Idea |
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sounds fun.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 26-Jul-2014 08:54 Post subject: Re: D&D Scenario Idea |
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| Kraken wrote: | Got to thinking about this last night.
A powerful wizard hires the party to help him deal with a rogue spell-caster. The spell-caster is experimenting with ways to go between realities, but the method the spell-caster has found involves swapping places with someone from that reality for the duration of his visit. This has caused the realm between realities to become unstable, and so the party must deal with the spell-caster while the wizard and his buddies try to fix the damage.
The party has two ways to force the spell-caster back: either kill the most recent person he's brought through, or somehow send the person back. If that happens, then it should reverse the spell and make the spell-caster appear.
Thing is:
1. The person who the party encounters will be someone so annoying or repulsive that the party will be far more likely to kill them than help them get back. (For example, think someone like Bernie Madoff.)
2. The spell-caster will return the moment the person is dead.
3. They will return on the exact spot where the person died.
As a result, the party will not have a chance to recover any spells used in killing the person, and if characters closed to melee range then they cannot hop back without risking an attack of opportunity... which risk they might have to take if the party casters need to pop off area-of-effect spells.
How's it sound?
Thanks. |
Cannot "hop back" to where?
And as using the "withdraw" action doesn't provoke an attack of opportunity the player can just simply walk away from the mage anyway...
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 26-Jul-2014 17:06 Post subject: Re: D&D Scenario Idea |
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Even further...
If the mage doesn't have a melee weapon he doesn't threaten any squares, so he wouldn't get an attack of opportunity to begin with.
If the mage does have a melee weapon his attack of opportunity has to be a melee attack. Any fighter should be able to easily handle an attack by a mage with a melee weapon.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
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| Posted: 13-Jan-2015 19:46 Post subject: Re: D&D Scenario Idea |
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Unless the caster has a touch spell cast and discharges it as his AoO...
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
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| Posted: 13-Jan-2015 19:52 Post subject: D&D Scenario Idea |
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What about allowing the rogue caster to do this based upon a contract wit some less reputable planar beings. Allowing access to devils or demons to material plane to steal souls or swindle mortals and then just disappear back without having to resort to some easily detectable gate. Making the fiend go back would be quite a challenge if killing would not help and payment would be demanded.
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chihawk
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| Posted: 14-Jan-2015 19:42 Post subject: Re: D&D Scenario Idea |
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| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | | Unless the caster has a touch spell cast and discharges it as his AoO... |
Nope, for the reasons I've already posted.
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Sleeping Dragon
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| Posted: 15-Jan-2015 00:07 Post subject: Re: D&D Scenario Idea |
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If you have a touch spell cast and you don't discharge it immediately, then you are holding a charge and you and considered armed, which technically allows you to make AoO with Chill Touch and other such stuff. At least in 3E. For 4E this debate would be meaningless, becauase the mage would be an NPC and thus use a different rules set than PCs. Having a spell ready on your hand is a fine thing when expecting combat or grapple is imminent, but your group has to accept that you are no-touch person, or it could backfire.
p. 140-142 touch spells in combat PHB for DnD 3.5
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chihawk
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| Posted: 16-Jan-2015 15:55 Post subject: Re: D&D Scenario Idea |
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| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | If you have a touch spell cast and you don't discharge it immediately, then you are holding a charge and you and considered armed, which technically allows you to make AoO with Chill Touch and other such stuff. At least in 3E. For 4E this debate would be meaningless, becauase the mage would be an NPC and thus use a different rules set than PCs. Having a spell ready on your hand is a fine thing when expecting combat or grapple is imminent, but your group has to accept that you are no-touch person, or it could backfire.
p. 140-142 touch spells in combat PHB for DnD 3.5 |
No, again for the reasons I've already posted.
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Sleeping Dragon
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| Posted: 16-Jan-2015 16:34 Post subject: Re: D&D Scenario Idea |
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Only the withdraw, but Somewhat dangerous AoO from a caster is possible, if provoked.
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Vagabond
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| Posted: 16-Jan-2015 20:52 Post subject: D&D Scenario Idea |
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| wrote: | PHB 3.5 PG.137 - Threatened Squares
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your action. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you’re unarmed, you don’t normally threaten any squares and thus can’t make attacks of opportunity. |
| wrote: | PHB 3.5 PG.137 - Making an Attack of Opportunity
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to. |
| wrote: | PHB 3.5 PG.140-142 - Touch Spells in Combat
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Touch Attacks
Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.
Holding the Charge
If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge. (HIGHLIGHT ADDED) |
| wrote: | PHB 3.5 PG.136 - Touch Attacks
Some attacks disregard armor, including shields and natural armor. In these cases, the attacker makes a touch attack roll (either ranged or melee). |
An AoO is allowed any time you threaten a square which traditionally mean that you can make an attack with a melee weapon into that space. When a AoO is triggered, the character who threatens that space may make a single melee attack against the target triggering the attack. Again, traditionally with a melee weapon.
A touch spell (a spell with a range of touch) if not discharged/used may be saved indefinitely until discharged. The character using a touch spell is considered to be armed with either a melee or ranged touch attack.
A touch attack is considered a modifier on a basic attack that does not count certain modifiers to AC.
Therefor, a touch spell such as 'shocking grasp' that uses a melee touch attack is for the purposes of the game a modified melee attack in which that character is considered armed. An armed character (one capable of a melee attack) threatens the spaces around them. Thus, a character with a charged touch spell of the melee type may use that spell to threaten and perform a AoO.
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Mordel
Mordel.Net
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| Posted: 17-Jan-2015 18:16 Post subject: Re: D&D Scenario Idea |
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I think Vagabond, citing references, pretty nicely put this discussion to bed. 
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
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| Posted: 18-Jan-2015 01:50 Post subject: Re: D&D Scenario Idea |
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Rules-lawyering happening is always a matter of time before it happens again with D&D.
On the other hand imagine a cleric waving desperately hand against an assassin in a dark alley and shouting that this Harm spell has assassin's name on it. Assassin, being a proper scoundrel, picks a filthy rat from the ground, shouts: "Catch!" and throws it on the cleric. *bluff check* Then we have a cleric holding a squirming rat with one hp and assassin can proceed with some ugly stuff.
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chihawk
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| Posted: 19-Jan-2015 09:25 Post subject: Re: D&D Scenario Idea |
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I stand corrected, but would laugh at any player who had a touch spell and claimed he was threatening any squares in a game I was running.
Right now that would likely me limited to Mordel himself. 
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
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| Posted: 19-Jan-2015 12:51 Post subject: Re: D&D Scenario Idea |
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From a realistic point of view your touch reach is horrible and swinging bare hands around yourself asks for having them cut off, but on the other hand the touch spells are conductive and ignore armours and shields, so touching any part of the enemy could conduct the spell. That combined with actions that actually provoke the AoO makes the prospect of threatened space with mere touch feasible. You try to grapple me? Aehm... inexpert disarm, trip or something like htat? Fair game. distracted by casting? etc. etc.
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