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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5792
Location: United States
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 Posted: 20-May-2013 15:47 Post subject: LAM Construction |
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I have heard rumors that the new LAM Construction rules will limit certain tech from being placed upon a LAM unit.
The basic rumor is that any piece of advanced tech that requires the unit to allocated critical slots to more than one location are prohibited.
So no xl or light fusion. no endo-steel or ferro-fiberous. no stealth armor types such as stealth, null, or chameleon.
The reason for this that I have seen is that the complexity and precision of the conversion equipment prevents the use of items that would interfere with this process.
Ok. I can accept that to within reason. As in classic LAMs, your side torsos became your wings I could see not allowing XL or Light engines. However, the structural and armor components make no sense. If you are building and designing a LAM as an engineer, you would be designing the bulk of these items into the design in a way that doesn't interfere. The given reason for this limitation makes no sense in this case.
An argument can even be made that given the classic images and the accepted conversion process that XL and Light engines would have no impact on the wing deployment equipment.
Its just a silly way of artificially limiting LAM design so that they LAMs lack "the ability to truly combat modern BattleMechs and aerospace fighters of equal weight". If they allowed LAMs to use ES and advanced armors, then the versatility of the conversion modes would show that they are not utterly helpless against same weight units.
If it wasn't for them purposely wanting to kill LAMs in the BT universe. Some nation would take the time to refine them, i'd imagine Comstar, FWL, or the Ghost Bear (a clan that never adopted the pilot genotype and use mechwarriors for pilots).
Now I know some will cry bloody murder over LAMs and how they are not battletech. That they have no place. Well, they are canon, they did exist, and were used pretty extensively by the SLDF relatively. They are not Veritechs. They are not super machines. They still behave like Mechs. And imho, if the whole Harmony Gold thing had never happened then I truly believe we'd still see a handful of designs in active use.
However, regardless of your opinion of them, the decisions to artificially limit certain aspects of their design seems poorly justified. It smacks of a "because I said so" answer. Its no better than when vehicles used to pop like popcorn because of their critical hit chart just so Mechs would be the clear king of the hill. Or infantry taking full damage from PPC strikes.
A LAM is already disadvantaged because of the 10 percent mass for the conversion equipment, limited fuel, and lack of a free 2 mp speed boost in fight mode. The choice to use the WiGe rules for AirMech mode helped remove that abuse but still gives a LAM so tactical flexibility. They don't need to add more artificial disadvantages. Its unnecessary.
What are your thoughts? Please be more detailed than LAMs suck and are not BT so good riddance.[/u]
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1470
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 21-May-2013 13:02 Post subject: LAM Construction |
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Ok, i can see the logic of engines that have slots in more than one location beeing a problem just as weapons that split their slots.
I can even think of TSM interfering with the conversion mechanism.
But i can`t see where the problems with EndoSteel or advanced armor types (with the exception of hardened or modular armor) would be?
I personally do not use LAM's because of their "optical interference" with RoboTech that we played too in the 80's.
But when the new rules come out i definitely would give it a try again.
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Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Jun-2013 20:11 Post subject: LAM Construction |
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I am not a fan of LAMs, I personally put them in the "Munchie" category, however, that being said I have to agree with Vagabond that these new limitations smack of "lets kill them out of the universe" with a stupid rule.
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The JadeDragon
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 26-Jun-2013 22:04 Post subject: LAM Construction |
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The new rules are in one of the Jihad sourcebooks, they really didn't change too much from the original rules at least not that I can tell. I don't mind LAMs as an oddity in the game, but given what they have done with the WoB having them and the ease to which they could build and field them yeah that kind of soured my take on them.
LAMs can be fun and add a challenge to things but at the same time they are very easy to munchkin with and the idea of mixing Clan tech on to them yeah that is going WAY over the top.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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AlayneLeung
Lyran Alliance
Staff Sergeant
Joined: 03-Jan-2015 18:40
Posts: 133
Location: United States
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| Posted: 20-Mar-2015 17:50 Post subject: LAM rules! 80 fuel pts/ton including fuel pumps; Apr 24 edit |
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thanks for starting this topic, Vagabond. i'm glad the new rules for LAMs are going to be published.
i prefer 80 points of fuel per ton including tonnage of fuel pumps for easier calculations & record keeping.
internal components except for weaponry and certain pieces of equipment that are bulky should be allowed to consume multiple torso critical slots, i mean, the side torsos expand to form wings and that should provide more than enough room for light/XL/XXL engines. i don't think TSM would interfere with conversion at all given how that LAMs can get ammo located in some locations for weapons located in other locations.
in addition to the new rules for LAMs, the rules for LAMs found at this link
www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php?Number=167851
in coordination with these currently unofficial rules i just typed:
A LAM's 'Mech structure and aerofighter structure each have a minimal tonnage equal to its SI multiplied by its total overthrust (equal to Sprinting MP) it can do in one TW turn divided by 200 (this is the same formula used to calculate the aerostructure of an aerodyne small craft and composite structure 'Mech); a bimodal LAM has its tonnage multiplied by 10% for conversion equipment, and a trimodal LAM's conversion equipment has a tonnage equal to said aeroLAM's tonnage multiplied by 5% (in theory, a bimodal LAM's conversion equipment functions like a 360 degree turret and a trimodal LAM's conversion equipment functions like a 360 degree turret but not as fast to allow from BattleMech mode to AirMech mode & vice versa and from AirMech mode to aerofighter mode and vice versa).
Each hand held weapon a LAM uses in aerofighter mode uses nose firing arc and there must be at least 1 point of armor for all of those hand held weapons when used in a space & atmosphere interface hex or in a space hex (all spacecraft including aerospace fighters are each required at least 1 point of armor per location); a weapon mounted on a LAM's arm in aerofighter mode uses nose firing arc (for realism). Do any of you believe that a weapon mounted on a LAM's arm in aerofighter mode should use only its corresponding left or right nose arc instead of the full nose arc given how that the arms are aerodynamic in aerofighter mode and also given how that a weapon mounted on a LAM's arm might have difficulty establishing LOS given how the other arm might block LOS (yeah, i know, TW rules say "Units don't block LOS." but there are exceptions like grounded DropShips and i think mobile structures and other grounded large spacecraft?
Damage of a LAM's gyro doesn't hinder conversion at all (in theory, the gyro is an internal component that doesn't bother conversion equipment); and a LAM isn't required to mount a gyro either; and if that LAM doesn't mount a gyro, then it must rely on its sensors for balance and all of its equipment must be symmetrically tonnaged balanced (in theory, sensors can guide a LAM for balance by studying the terrain for it to walk/run/sprint/crawl/dangle/climb/land on), or it can spend 1 additional MP per hex it enters to maintain balance (this is basically careful MP from TO).
A LAM's aerostructure: occupies 1 critical slot per arm or leg and 1 critical slot per side torso for each of its four launch&landing wheels (this is in accordance with real life aerodynamic fighters' wheel positions); its conversion equipment occupies 1 critical slot in each of its center torso or head, left arm, right arm, left torso, and right torso locations (in theory, conversion equipment that causes the head, arms, and side torsoes to transform would require these positions of conversion equipment).
A LAM's fuel and fuel supply's respective fuel pumps occupies one critical slot per ton or fraction thereof, remember, 80 points of fuel per ton (this should include the tonnage of fuel pumps for easier record keeping) in the same manner as ammo; and a LAM may start with any amount of fuel provided tonnage and critical slots are available and it doesn't get any fuel that has 0 mass as part of conversion equipment tonnage (fuel reaction mass that has 0 mass makes no sense); its combustion chambers occupy one critical slot per its engine's engine rating divided by 50 (i thought a divisor of 50 was reasonable and realistic given the sizes of combustion chambers in regards to an engine rating), and these critical slots must be symmetrically balanced if said LAM doesn't mount a gyro (otherwise there's going to be difficulty of maintaining balance), and must be mounted in left toro & right torso (left wing & right wing) and/or left leg & right leg (left aft & right aft) (these positions of combustion chambers are where real life aerodynamic fighters can have their combustion chambers).
Any LAM in aerofighter mode may not make any physical attacks except for headbunting physical attack while going in a loop, ramming, and exhaust nozzle heat attack(s) (not sure about wrecking ball physical attack, but the other physical attacks seemed impossible, in theory).
LAMs can't use side torso turreted weapons in AirMech or aerofighter mode because the side torso wing structure totally interferes with the rotating of said side torso turrets (a side torso turret would physically move against the wing structure and be stopped by it).
A LAM may spend 2 MP to launch from an AirMech jumpglide/AirMech flying (this is a TH rule); and 0MP, 1MP or 2MP to land from an AirMech jumpglide, and if it spends 0MP or 1MP to land from an AirMech jumpglide/AirMech flying, then apply respectively a +2 or +1 modifier to the piloting landing minimum desired roll number (in theory, a LAM pilot could try to spend 0MP or 1MP to land and i thought the +2/+1 modifiers were reasonable given TO rules for careful movement).
All weapons mounted on a LAM follow aerofighter fire control system rules (for fairness since aerospace fighters are required to obey FCS rules).
Each AirMech, when jumpgliding/flying, obeys VTOL turn mode rules (in theory, a LAM would have to practically do this in real life).
An additional person such as a gunner in a dual cockpit or small dual cockpit or small dual command console cockpit of a LAM may negate the LAM's attacker evasive modifiers and attacker movement modifiers when attacking during any turn said LAM is using evasive MP (in theory, an additional person being a gunner could compensate for his/her LAMpilot's movement of LAM).
Each flying AirMech can be subject to anti-specialist ability -2 to-hit modifier (see TO) and/or subject to anti-aircraft targeting -2 to-hit modifier (see SO p. 193) (again for fairness).
Each LAM may mass up to 100 tons (BatteMechs and aerofighters can mass up to 100 tons, and so should LAMs).
All jet boosters used by a LAM occupy critical 1 critical slot per side torso or 1 critical slot per leg (i thought this would be reasonable given the tonnage of various jet boosters); a LAM that mounts jet boosters may use them for additional movement when, while in AirMech mode, jumpgliding/flying (in theory if a VTOL can use jet boosters, then so should a LAM).
A LAM may be constructed as a FrankenLAM (see SO p. 189); if said constructing will use one or more different standard tonnage limb(s)/torso component(s), then the LAM in aerofighter mode must make a control roll or spend 1 additional thrust point to maintain balance when flying in an atmosphere/space if it doesn't have a functioning gyro (this is realistic and said additional 1 thrust point spent is like TO rule for careful movement).
A LAM generates 1 heat point per standard jump jet it uses while jumpgliding/flying while in AirMech mode (if a BattleMech can generate 1 heat point per standard jump jet while jumping, then so should a LAM).
Each LAM uses the 'Mech heat scale even when in aerofighter mode (this is to prevent duplicitly tracking heat and yes i do believe an aerospace fighter should use the 'Mech heat scale with aerospace fighter adjustments but not of gunnery, ammo, movement, equipment failure, and shutdown).
A hit to any conversion slot of a LAM keeps said LAM from changing from one mode to another mode (in theory a LAM can't convert when its conversion takes one or more critical hits); a hit to a combustion chamber critical slot has the same effect as an aerofighter hit to its engine (for fairness); and a hit to one or more launch/landing wheels applies a +5 modifier made for all aerofighter mode launches/landings of LAM (again for fairness).
When a LAM performs a jumpgliding movement to do a DFA in AirMech mode, it has an additional +2 modifier applied due to its wings being deployed that make it very difficult for a 'Mech to DFA a target in addition to all other modifiers (in theory, wings do provide lift that would significantly interfere with an AirMech's ability to do a DFA).
During a turn a 'Mech transforms into another mode, apply a +1 modifier to all Determining Critical Hits Table rolls (in theory, while a LAM is transforming is more vulnerable to critical hits).
A LAM may have only one head location (ancient ninjas used to put an additional fake head on each of their shoulders, but on a LAM, not possible in theory).
A LAM's safe thrust in aerofighter mode equals its engine rating divided by 100, then plus 2 (this is the same formula used to calculate an aerospace fighter's safe thrust).
Jumpjets/improved jumpjets don't emit fuel exhaust; the exhaust nozzles of combustion chambers do emit fuel exhaust (jump jets aren't designed for extremely high temperatures of fuel exhaust used for thrust).
A LAM may mount and/or use ICE/fusion/fission/Fuel Cell, XL/XXL/Light/compact/standard/less shielded/more shielded fusion engines, composite structure, endo steel, reinforced structure, Null Signature System, Chameleon Light Polarization Shield, and/or Void System, various armor(s) including patchwork armor, etc. (in theory, a LAM should have room for all this equipment since its aerostructure and conversion equipment wouldn't interfere because said aerostructure and conversion equipment would envelop said equipment like 'Mechstructure).
A LAM may have VTOL rotors; if using standard rotors, then each VTOL rotor occupies two critical slots in LAM's CT; if using coaxial rotors, then both VTOL rotors occupy the same critical slot in a LAM's CT; if using dual rotors, then each VTOL rotor occupies a critical slot in a left torso/right torso location; and one armor point per standard/dual rotor (maximum and minimum) unless using coaxial rotors (2 points maximum for them); and a player may exchange 1 jump jet MP for 1 rotors MP (these rules are realistic & fair).
A LAM may not carry a shield made of matter in aerofighter mode/or when jumpflying in AirMech mode, otherwise said shield takes skidding damage during launching/landing. i'm surprised that the author of the LAM rules, that're found using above webpage link, didn't think of this no shield rule that i thought of (in theory, a shield carried by a flying LAM would interfere with its aerodynamicness).
A LAM's cruising jumpgliding MP xor cruising jumpflying MP is equal to its BattleMech jumping MP * 3, it's flank jumpgliding MP xor flank flying MP is equal to its cruising jumpgliding MP xor cruising flying MP * 1.5, and it's overjumpgliding MP xor overflying MP is equal to its cruising jumpgliding MP xor overflying MP * 2 (i think this is already official given TRO 3085 publication of four LAM specifications, and the "flying MP" refers to AirMechs flying when using these rules, not aerofighter thrust flying).
A LAM, that is standing/walking/running/sprinting/crawling/jumpgliding may use any quirk a 'Mech can use except for no/minimal arms quirk, extended torso twist, hyper extending actuators jettison capable weapon, overhead arms, (for realism); a LAM that is jumpflying in AirMech mode/flying/landing in aerofighter mode may use any SO design quirk that an aerofighter can use (for realism).
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"Okay friendlies, you're not paid to be exclusively a 'MechWarrior', vehicle/spacecraft crewer, fighter pilot, or infantry trooper. You're just paid to follow my orders!" So says me to my personnel.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 07-May-2015 02:34 Post subject: LAM Construction |
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Does this happen to limit the use of AC 20s that can also be used in multiple locations? and how does that interact with clan ES and Endo-composite srtructure that you can put in single location? That multiple location limit needs to be somewhat narrowed.
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The dragon NEVER sleeps!
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5792
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-May-2015 03:32 Post subject: Re: LAM Construction |
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| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | | Does this happen to limit the use of AC 20s that can also be used in multiple locations? and how does that interact with clan ES and Endo-composite srtructure that you can put in single location? That multiple location limit needs to be somewhat narrowed. |
AC/20s are definitely effected.
As for ClES and EC, the rumor says NO structures that require criticals.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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magicaldeveloper
Free Worlds League
Private
Joined: 19-Sep-2015 19:11
Posts: 18
Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Sep-2015 21:13 Post subject: Re: LAM rules! 80 fuel pts/ton including fuel pumps |
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Vagabond, i think you should've named your topic "LAMs: their constructions & functions", and i'm glad the new rules for LAMs are going to be published, and i hope you and AlayneLeung and myself can use more openminded wording (instead of saying "a LAM may ..." say "any LAM may ...") because there's presumablely going to be many LAMs designed and used in the future no doubt, and Alayne Leung, thank you for taking the time to post this sort of long reply of your rules for LAMs that i just read (most of those rules are really good), and it would be nice if you had numbered your rules for LAMs like the way you did with your evasive rules topic and had your rules for LAMs in a more comprehendable order
| wrote: | | Each hand held weapon a LAM uses in aerofighter mode uses nose firing arc and there must be at least 1 point of armor for all of those hand held weapons when used in a space & atmosphere interface hex or in a space hex (all spacecraft including aerospace fighters are each required at least 1 point of armor per location); a weapon mounted on a LAM's arm in aerofighter mode uses nose firing arc (for realism). Do any of you believe that a weapon mounted on a LAM's arm in aerofighter mode should use only its corresponding left or right nose arc instead of the full nose arc given how that the arms are aerodynamic in aerofighter mode and also given how that a weapon mounted on a LAM's arm might have difficulty establishing LOS given how the other arm might block LOS (yeah, i know, TW rules say "Units don't block LOS." but there are exceptions like grounded DropShips and i think mobile structures and other grounded large spacecraft? |
agreed, and i'd like to add to these rules of yours that all handheld objects carried by a LAM in AirMech xor aerofighter mode can't mass more than 10% of said LAM's total tonnage, but if they do, then they impose a -1 cruising movement point xor -1 thrust movement point per each additional 10% (or fraction thereof)
| wrote: | | Damage of a LAM's gyro doesn't hinder conversion at all (in theory, the gyro is an internal component that doesn't bother conversion equipment); and a LAM isn't required to mount a gyro either; and if that LAM doesn't mount a gyro, then it must rely on its sensors for balance and all of its equipment must be symmetrically tonnaged balanced (in theory, sensors can guide a LAM for balance by studying the terrain for it to walk/run/sprint/crawl/dangle/climb/land on), or it can spend 1 additional MP per hex it enters to maintain balance (this is basically careful MP from TO).? |
agreed, and how about Cray's rules for heavier actuators for 'Mechs, in this case, Land Air 'Mechs to maintain balance if desired for 'Mechs that have damaged or destroyed xor no gyro(es) and can't rely on sensors for balance
| wrote: | | A LAM's fuel and fuel supply's respective fuel pumps occupies one critical slot per ton or fraction thereof, remember, 80 points of fuel per ton (this should include the tonnage of fuel pumps for easier record keeping) in the same manner as ammo; and a LAM may start with any amount of fuel provided tonnage and critical slots are available and it doesn't get any fuel that has 0 mass as part of conversion equipment tonnage (fuel reaction mass that has 0 mass makes no sense); its combustion chambers occupy one critical slot per its engine's engine rating divided by 50 (i thought a divisor of 50 was reasonable and realistic given the sizes of combustion chambers in regards to an engine rating), and these critical slots must be symmetrically balanced if said LAM doesn't mount a gyro (otherwise there's going to be difficulty of maintaining balance), and must be mounted in left toro & right torso (left wing & right wing) and/or left leg & right leg (left aft & right aft) (these positions of combustion chambers are where real life aerodynamic fighters can have their combustion chambers).? |
agreed, except i think that 50 divisor should be 100 instead of 50 because a 100 ton LAM with a safe thrust of 6 using your rule below for calculating safe thrust would require 8 critical slots due to 6 - 2 = 4, then multiplied by 100 = 400, then divided by 50 = 8 critical slots
| wrote: | | All weapons mounted on a LAM follow aerofighter fire control system rules (for fairness since aerospace fighters are required to obey FCS rules).? |
sort of agree because a 100 ton conventional vehicle can have, using item slot rules, a max of 25 simultaneously functional weapons mounted on same location, and i think an aeropace fighter can have a max of 6 weapons per firing arc, so FCS rules need to be amended
| wrote: | | All jet boosters used by a LAM occupy critical 1 critical slot per side torso or 1 critical slot per leg (i thought this would be reasonable given the tonnage of various jet boosters); a LAM that mounts jet boosters may use them for additional movement when, while in AirMech mode, jumpgliding/flying (in theory if a VTOL can use jet boosters, then so should a LAM).? |
flying AirMechs already follow VTOL flying rules (see rules for LAMs from that link you posted) and so said jumpgliding/flying AirMechs can already use jet boosters, and i recommend that LAMs in aerofighter mode can't use jet boosters while in space
| wrote: | | Each LAM uses the 'Mech heat scale even when in aerofighter mode (this is to prevent duplicitly tracking heat and yes i do believe an aerospace fighter should use the 'Mech heat scale with aerospace fighter adjustments but not of gunnery, ammo, movement, equipment failure, and shutdown). |
agreed including "LAM in aerofighter mode uses the 'Mech heat scale with aerofighter adjustments" but i disagree about "gunnery, ammo, movement, equipment failure, and shutdown" (i recommend same 'Mech heat scale effects for LAM in aerofighter mode and for LAM in AirMech mode also to prevent confusion)
| wrote: | | When a LAM performs a jumpgliding movement to do a DFA in AirMech mode, it has an additional +2 modifier applied due to its wings being deployed that make it very difficult for a 'Mech to DFA a target in addition to all other modifiers (in theory, wings do provide lift that would significantly interfere with an AirMech's ability to do a DFA). |
agreed, also how about having each jump jet not used for elevation up/down xor hex movement work like careful movement so that any LAM can get a -1 modifier bonus when doing said DFA attack against said target?
here's a couple rules ideas of my own:
any LAM may (but isn't required to) have mounted one or more turbines in either or both side torso wing locations that should be symmetrically balanced tonnagewise, and the turbines each consume a consume a number of critical slots equal to said LAM's engine rating divided by 100
and, i'd like for the max +3 target movement modifier discussed in Interstellar Operations Beta Test, for any LAM in AirMech mode, to be instantly and permanently abolished
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any BT information that i post should not be considered official BT information unless said BT information that i post can be legally quoted from a published up to date BT product
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