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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5797
Location: United States
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 Posted: 21-Nov-2002 05:05 Post subject: tinkering with guided missiles... |
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well, i've been thinking on this one for a long time. and the solutions of most people have merret but tend to lack certain things. each idea has its own base problem, that just hampers its application.
streaks, the only true guided missile system in battletech [other then arrow IV.] putting streak capabilities on anything but srms tends to unbalance such weapons. lrm launchers that always do max damage, and are always gonna hit, unbalancing. plus, if you put such technologies on level 3 thunderbolt missles you get a very damaging and far to accurate missile, again unbalancing.
then theres artimes, a nice peice of game equipment. guided missile technology, not really. truely the crudest of the crude guidence system. offering no improvement on target hit ratio, just the damage ratio. because if you miss, they all miss. truely dark ages of missile guidence.
gangrenes guided missile rules, a truely golden idea. well thought out and designed, but IMHO to well thought out. its complicated to read, complicated to use, and slows down play. i grand idea that just failed to achive. also IMHO it wasn't very battletech in its design and feel.
time and again... people have tried, well i now put my name up on this list. for i will try the truely difficult. to give you an accepted, liked, and easy to use guided missile.
my idea opperates around the basics of guided missiles that most people know. you lock on, pull the trigger, and let it fly. the missile either hits or not. so here are my rules:
Vagabond's Guided Missile System
The VGMS has two steps when firing; first step- locking on target, second- firing of weapon. the first step opperates much like all other weapons, except you don't resolve damage immediatly. you use the same to-hit process as every other weapon. the second step is the step were the weapon is actually fired and damage is resolved.
step 1: roll to-hit during weapons phase. if you miss, no effect. if you hit, go to step two.
step 2: after achiving a lock [passing the to-hit in step 1] the player decides to launch the weapon, this must be decided after the to-hit roll before any other weapons are rolled. only when the weapons launched does it cause heat build-up and use ammo. after the weapon is launched, roll 2d6: a result of 5+ means the missile hits.
missiles using the VGMS may be fired unguided as if they were normal missiles.
the VGMS does not work on an enemy using ECM, an enemy within the influence of enemy ECM, or while you are in the influence of enemy ECM.
the VGMS takes up 1 ton and 1 critical, and opperates under the same equipment mounting rules as Artimes IV.
The Cost of VGMS ammo is 2.5x normal. the VGMS itself cost 3x that of artimes.
it quick, easy, and uses everything thats already in battletech. opinions?
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Kyu Kage
ComStar
Captain
Joined: 16-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 503
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| Posted: 21-Nov-2002 08:47 Post subject: RE: tinkering with guided missiles... |
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Quote:
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On 2002-11-21 05:05, Vagabond wrote:
after the weapon is launched, roll 2d6: a result of 5+ means the missile hits.
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WHY??
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Loyalty above all else except honour!
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Cravex Le Drake
Royal Black Watch Regiment
Recruit
Joined: 12-Nov-2002 00:00
Posts: 9
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| Posted: 21-Nov-2002 10:05 Post subject: RE: tinkering with guided missiles... |
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I think he is using it kind of like a tag system. Seems to work like an upgraded semi-guided missle system.
1. get a lock
2. fire the system
3. missles home in on lock
My only question is, do all the missles hit if a lock is achieved? It is not clear by your explaination of the system.
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"When it gets deep, that's where you'll find us." Cravex Le Drake, CO. Kimshi Cowboys"
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Nov-2002 10:10 Post subject: RE: tinkering with guided missiles... |
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Good system Vagabond. Simple and easy to use. Also, it kinda reminds me of the "Lock" tone you get in Mechwarrior games...
"I have tone!"
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Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Nov-2002 13:06 Post subject: RE: tinkering with guided missiles... |
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Quote:
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gangrenes guided missile rules, a truely golden idea. well thought out and designed, but IMHO to well thought out. its complicated to read, complicated to use, and slows down play. i grand idea that just failed to achive. also IMHO it wasn't very battletech in its design and feel.
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I guess few people know this, but I actually released a simplified version of my missile rules. After I playtested the rules it was apparent that they were over-complicated.
I cannot fault you for thinking they were not very Battletech-ish. They were very far the Btech norm, but I must admit that's why I designed them.
Your rules are good for the Btech missile systems, although there are still some things I disagree with.
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Gangrene
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1329
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Nov-2002 15:47 Post subject: RE: tinkering with guided missiles... |
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So you basically have a cross between the Streak and Artemis systems here. Mounted like an Aretemis, appears to be guided like a Streak but not nearly as accurate, but at a reduced tonnage cost.
Streak technology would be superior on SRM 2s & 4s and a pretty close mach for the 6 pack. For LRMs though I don't think even the Artemis IV can compete with this sytems.
I like it.
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The JadeDragon
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5797
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Nov-2002 18:28 Post subject: RE: tinkering with guided missiles... |
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Quote:
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Your rules are good for the Btech missile systems, although there are still some things I disagree with.
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what? any feed back can go to improve the idea.
and you released a simlified version? really, well send it over to me man.
_________________
one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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AlexxKnight
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 11-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 787
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| Posted: 21-Nov-2002 18:34 Post subject: RE: tinkering with guided missiles... |
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I have to say I like what I see so far, the only question I have is do all the missles hit the target? I think the second balances out LRMs nicely. I would like to play test them, if there was anyone near me to get together and play some BTech with.
_________________
Alexx Knight, Lance Sgt.
Command Company, Crimson Janissaries
-----------------------------------------------------
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. . . And you
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5797
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Nov-2002 18:46 Post subject: RE: tinkering with guided missiles... |
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Quote:
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On 2002-11-21 08:47, Kyu Kage wrote:
Quote:
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On 2002-11-21 05:05, Vagabond wrote:
after the weapon is launched, roll 2d6: a result of 5+ means the missile hits.
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WHY??
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well, when mulling over this idea, i wanted a guided missile. but streaks are just far to accurate, theres no chance of missing when you fire, and theres always a chance of missing. the target could turn at just the right time to throw of the missile guidence, or something similar.
i also, was going to design some launchers for these, but after typing it up i decided not to. the system wasen't supossed to be compatable with bt missiles. but in the end they were.
part of the draw back was this, on the turn you achive the lock you launch the payload. the missile pops up skyward, then on the next weapons phase you roll to see if it hits. so the first phase you spend most of the turn locking on then at just the end you fire. it homes in during the movement phase, and hits the following weapons phase.
a good idea, but when applied to SRM or LRM's it makes little sense. Because if you had passed the to-hit on say an 11+, you'd resolve the damage then. now this system removes the chance factor of missing 11+, but adds a chance factor to all rolls. i may very well reduce the second roll.
the reason theres a second roll, is because as i said "when launched the missiles pop up" in other words, there not launched straight at the target but instead arc up into the sky so there warheads can find the target then home in. this means that there path comes in higher then other missiles, and since there self-guiding they may miss. so even if you needed 3+ to hit, you can still miss because your gunnery skill has no effect on the missiles guidence.
_________________
one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5797
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Nov-2002 18:56 Post subject: RE: tinkering with guided missiles... |
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Quote:
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On 2002-11-21 18:34, AlexxKnight wrote:
I have to say I like what I see so far, the only question I have is do all the missles hit the target? I think the second balances out LRMs nicely. I would like to play test them, if there was anyone near me to get together and play some BTech with.
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do all the missiles hit? hmmm, that a very nice question. as i said above, this wasn't initially intended for. it was intended for two missile systems i was going to make, but didn't after looking it over.
we have two options here...
option 1: all missiles hit.
option 2: roll for each group of missiles. for each 5pt cluster on lrms and each 4pt or 2pt cluster on srms.
the first gives it a semi-streak feel and is quick and simple.
the second would keep with my original concept on why you'd be rolling the 5+ in the first place. but would require more rolls, yes all the same number... and its not as random as the missile table but none the less more rolls.
so whats everybodies opinion?
_________________
one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Nov-2002 19:56 Post subject: RE: tinkering with guided missiles... |
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Uh. I like the second option. But then we're getting up into the bog-down zone with the rolling, so we might want to draw the line after that. So that would make it:
1) Lock on with normal to-hit roll!
2) Be some number, currently the suggested number is five, though I think four would be good. Anyway, beat that number with 2d6 on every cluster of 5 for LRMS. On SRMs...uh...
I think that's the problem with the second option. Could we roll SRMs in pairs? It would mean "tighter shot grouping", although in my eyes, it's just an excuse to keep this thing on semi-level ground with Streaks. Streaks would make great crit hunters, but the Guided SRMs could punch holes a bit more effectively...(transmission altered)
Edit: Or, we could roll for half of the missiles in the SRM launcher. Just an idea.
(trasmission restored) but then we lose the "shotgun" effect I so love... *sigh*
Any ideas of how SRMs would work with the system?
Edit: Or should this be am LRM only system? I can't really envision SRMs going up, finding the target, then coming down. I envision them as more of making a beeline for the target.
P.S. Amazing. I seem to have a lot to say. Apologies to those who hate long posts. 
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Major Joseph Garbo
CO 17th Recon Battalion,
Harewood's Harvesters
“An engineer can look at a pile of junk and tell you what it was, a good one can tell you what went wrong and an expert engineer can put the pile of junk back together.”
[ This Message was edited by: CO_17thRecon on 2002-11-21 19:59 ]
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Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5797
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Nov-2002 20:16 Post subject: RE: tinkering with guided missiles... |
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i'd prefear rolling the 5+ for srm's in pairs, but then resolving there hit location as per standard rules.
after talking with raven, it might be good to reduce the 5+ to 4+.... otherwise the chances of hitting start becoming bothersome. you pass that 11+ lock on to miss the 5+, major suckage.
i'm also thinking up another variantion of this missile system. more to follow.
_________________
one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Nov-2002 22:39 Post subject: RE: guided missiles... |
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Option 1. It simplifies gameplay and it compensates for having to make 2 rolls. If you make it into 5 pt groups then it loses just about all the advantages it may have over regular LRM systems.
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Gangrene
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Kyu Kage
ComStar
Captain
Joined: 16-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 503
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| Posted: 22-Nov-2002 05:49 Post subject: RE: guided missiles... |
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AH.
Now I see it.
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Loyalty above all else except honour!
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AlexxKnight
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 11-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 787
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| Posted: 22-Nov-2002 09:21 Post subject: RE: guided missiles... |
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I have to agree with gangrene, but it still might unbalance LRMs, I mean 15-20 points of missle to 1 location, ouch!!!
Maybe half or even in groups of 10
_________________
Alexx Knight, Lance Sgt.
Command Company, Crimson Janissaries
-----------------------------------------------------
The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. . . And you
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