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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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 Posted: 26-Nov-2002 21:52 Post subject: Heavy armor |
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Well, since I am not one to bother with the mundane, here is something else you can criticize.
Hardened armor sucks.
Heavy Armor
Heavy armor is a change from conventional armor in that it has less ability to absorb energy, but compensates by being extremely strong. The result is armor that is impervious to smaller weapons but subject to sudden localized failure when hit with larger weapons.
Gameplay:
Heavy armor yields 8 points of armor for every ton placed.
Heavy armor does not take damage normally. When calculating damage from a weapon follow these steps:
1) Subtract 5 from the weapon damage (minimum 0).
2) If the remaining damage is less than or equal to 5 points, apply all damage to armor.
3) If remaining damage is greater than 5 points, apply 5 points damage to the armor and transfer all excess damage to the internal structure. Roll for criticals as per normal internal structure damage.
Ex. A unit using heavy armor is hit in the right torso with a gauss rifle. The damage done is 10 (15 - 5). The first 5 points of damage go to the armor, and the remaining 5 points go to the internal structure.
Note that it is possible for some weapons to do no damage. Machine guns, small lasers, medium lasers, and other such weapons do no damage. This also applies to MRM's, LRM's and SRM's.
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Gangrene
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Jade_Dragon
8th Sword of Light
Sho-sho
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Nov-2002 12:08 Post subject: RE: Heavy armor |
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Great against IS units, gets ripped to pieces by clan tech PPCs.
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The JadeDragon
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Nov-2002 18:48 Post subject: RE: Heavy armor |
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I'll freely admit that I don't like this much. All of my favorite weapons (with the exception of the UAC/20) are smaller weapons, so what would I do against a 'Mech like this? I'd get my butt kicked badly. There should be SOME way that small weapons can bust through the shell.
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Major Joseph Garbo
CO 17th Recon Battalion,
Harewood's Harvesters
“An engineer can look at a pile of junk and tell you what it was, a good one can tell you what went wrong and an expert engineer can put the pile of junk back together.”
[ This Message was edited by: CO_17thRecon on 2002-11-27 18:49 ]
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Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5792
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Nov-2002 19:12 Post subject: RE: Heavy armor |
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he's reproducing the heavy armor that is equiped on the MW:DA peices. where they negate the first click of damage.
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Nov-2002 22:12 Post subject: RE: Heavy armor |
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True enough, but hardened armor doesn't work that same way in MW:DA as in BattleTech.
So why should it be brought over just the same way? I don't disagree with the principal. I like the idea. I dislike the execution. There needs to be a way to break though with smaller weapons. Like maybe enough shots hitting on location will damage it? Or something...
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Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Nov-2002 22:41 Post subject: RE: Heavy armor |
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I am not trying to bring over anything from MW:DA! My idea is original, to me at least.
Actually this is an attempt to make a system for tank battles (a little hobby of mine), which I quickly threw into Btech form. There exists armor that you can pound on all day with smaller weapons (RPG's, mortars, 25mm cannons) and it will have no effect. The frontal armor on the Abrams is an example of this. I make no apologies for having the armor impervious to smaller weapons, since that is exactly what I am trying to simulate.
Jade is right, though, this would be nothing against clan ER PPC's. I have a tendency to ignore the clans nowadays, since they are the less interesting side of Btech IMO.
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Gangrene
[ This Message was edited by: Gangrene on 2002-11-27 22:41 ]
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Gangrene
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CO_17thRecon
Kell Hounds
Major
Joined: 10-Sep-2002 00:00
Posts: 1297
Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Nov-2002 22:48 Post subject: RE: Heavy armor |
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Then I simply hope I never see anything like this on my opponents 'Mechs. My whole battalion could barely dent it.
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Jarylan Blackwell
"What the...?! Where did you get THAT?!"
"Creative aquisition."
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
General
Joined: 30-Apr-2002 00:00
Posts: 1833
Location: United States
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| Posted: 30-Nov-2002 22:00 Post subject: RE: Heavy armor |
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I agree that Hardened armor is not really worth it. I would have liked to seee 12 points of armor for every ton and most of the same rules. I didnt mind them just the lack of armor taht the hardened armor provided was scary.
Stinger
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If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Shadowking
Kell Hounds
Captain
Joined: 22-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 365
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2002 08:15 Post subject: RE: Heavy armor |
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If you have a good enough pilot to offset the extra piloting roll, Harden Armor can be VERY effective. I've used it to great effect on the couple occasions to which i've actually made use of it. One of which was in a Free-For-All against 2 other Assaults carrying Maces, RAC10's, and a assortment of other weapons. All I had were a few pulse lasers (and no i didn't have a tc). I just sat up on top of a hill so they couldn't touch me with their Mace's and picked'em apart. Took a crap load of damage, but had almost no Internal damage by the time it was over. Which I might add, I also had Reinforced Intertnal stucture as well. I coulda sat up there all day picking them apart. Though I must admit, it helped when they both jammed their RAC's early on. 
And if you're worried about the loss in speed, just use patched work armor and don't place any Harden on the legs. Though you still have to deal with the extra piloting roll.
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2002 11:27 Post subject: RE: Heavy armor |
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Perhaps drop the thressholds of damage to 4 and 8 respectively?
That still leaves it invulnerable to small weaponry like MG's, SL's and SRMs, while the most common weapon, the ML, still does a point of damage. Likewise, LRM's will only do damage in 5 point groups, if a group is 4 or less damage, it does nada.
PPCs and AC10's become nastier in the above example, doing 2 damage to internals.
Still, whether you like these changes, or leave your current rules alone, I'd sell the kidneys of the members of my unit (including dependents) to buy me some Alacorns and Thunderhawks. Or Blitzkriegs.
This armor is cool, but 15+ point weapons will destroy you extremely quickly. You'll truly run out of internals before you run out of armor.
Perhaps just make it that it always sucks up 4 damage free of charge, and does the rest of the damage per normal? Or half the rest of the damage (round up)?
Paul
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2002 18:42 Post subject: RE: Heavy armor |
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On 2002-12-02 11:27, Paul wrote:
Perhaps drop the thressholds of damage to 4 and 8 respectively?
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Yeah, that works too. I made it 5 just because medium lasers are the most used weapon in Btech, and I wanted something that could stand up well to a laser boat.
I am thinking maybe 4 and 10 to be the best all around numbers, because lowering the second threshhold below 10 really makes the armor weak.
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This armor is cool, but 15+ point weapons will destroy you extremely quickly. You'll truly run out of internals before you run out of armor.
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This armor kind of banks on the idea that gauss and AC/20's are some of the less common weapons on the battlefield.
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Perhaps just make it that it always sucks up 4 damage free of charge, and does the rest of the damage per normal? Or half the rest of the damage (round up)?
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I wanted some way to bring armor piercing into the game, that way it really pays to have the big guns. I would rather not have that removed, although I am open to suggestions of other systems.
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Gangrene
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Tiger
Draconis Combine
Shujin
Joined: 01-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 139
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2002 19:24 Post subject: RE: Heavy armor |
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I like it. Is's definately a nice solution to the 100 ton machine gun boat.
How would it work for multiple groups of missiles, like if I got a total of 15 LRMs that hit one location would it be negated because of they were in 5 missile groups or would it go through because it did 15 points of total damage?
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MX_Tiger
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5792
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2002 19:46 Post subject: RE: Heavy armor |
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well heres an idea.......
it kinda slows down play thou....
roll to see if it penitrates the armor-
roll is done on 2d6:
formula- Z=2+[A/10]+R-[D/10] round to nearest
Z: number you need equal or better then.
A: remaining armor of the section hit.
R: to-hit range modifier for weapon.
D: damage value of weapon.
example: an undamaged Atlas 7D being hit at 14hexes in the CT by a PPC.
Z=2+[47/10]+2-[10/10]
Z=2+[4.7]+2-[1]
Z=8.7-1
Z=7.7
Z=8
roll 2d6 on 8+ in this example you penitrate the armor.
on penitrations do half damage external, half internal. roll for crits accordingly.
in our example this mint condition Atlas would then suffer 5 damage to his armor, reducing it to 42, and 5 damage to his internal.
what do ya think?
we might treat missiles as always having a range of 0 for determining penitration.
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one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 255
Location: United States
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| Posted: 02-Dec-2002 19:46 Post subject: RE: Heavy armor |
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Quote:
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On 2002-12-02 18:42, Gangrene wrote:
Yeah, that works too. I made it 5 just because medium lasers are the most used weapon in Btech, and I wanted something that could stand up well to a laser boat.
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Cool. IMHO, reducing all those ML's to 1 point weapons still really pulls the plug out of their dingy.
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I am thinking maybe 4 and 10 to be the best all around numbers, because lowering the second threshhold below 10 really makes the armor weak.
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I tend to agree. The second 8 was there for symetry.
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This armor kind of banks on the idea that gauss and AC/20's are some of the less common weapons on the battlefield.
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This armor will make them the only weapons on the battlefield. It won't pay to have anythign else.
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I wanted some way to bring armor piercing into the game, that way it really pays to have the big guns. I would rather not have that removed, although I am open to suggestions of other systems.
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Hmm. Perhaps have weapons that do 11+ damage do a crit chance roll?
You could add a MoS kind of element to that;
subtract 10 from the damage the weapon does.
subtract this number from 13.
IE, GR: 5 and 8. A roll of 8 or higher on 2d6 generates 1 crit damage. (No doubles or triples until you're actually chewing on internals, or get a floating crit).
Or perhaps if you roll 8 or higher in the above example, you do 1 internal damage, and get a crit chance per normal.
I think the main weakness of the current idea is that it'll make all the smaller weapons obselete. Which doesn't have to be a bad thing, thats how weaponry naturally evolves.
However, the truly nasty guns such as any flavor of AC20 and esspecially GR's are too powerful in the current format.
Paul
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Gangrene
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 939
Location: United States
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| Posted: 03-Dec-2002 00:55 Post subject: RE: Heavy armor |
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Using the system from the original post LRM's would do no damage. Using the system from my previous post LRM's would do 1 point of damage for every group of 5 and 0 for smaller groups.
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Gangrene
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