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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
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Joined: 04-Mar-2002 00:00
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 Posted: 17-May-2003 05:40 Post subject: Traitor mech |
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I speak of the Icestorm, Clan 2nd line mech in the 3060 TRO that serves in front-line units. It is very fast, poorly armed and armored, and is clearly supposed to scoot around at top speed using TAG to call in artillery and Arrow missiles on the enemy. It is a combined arms weapon.
This mech was built many years prior to invading the Inner Sphere and the advent of the Omnimech as well and it is the exact opposite of Clanners duking it out one-on-one. Was it not treasonous for a Clanner to build this thing?
Did this fool Clanner even bother to read his own Clan's fluff text?
[ This Message was edited by: Gunslinger Patch on 2003-05-17 05:45 ]
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Kraken
Federated Suns
Marshal
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-May-2003 09:47 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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The thing to remember is that the Icestorm, according to the fluff, was based off a Star League mech known as the Cameroon.
Most likely, it predates many of the Clan fighting traditions (1-1, no artillery, etc.). Out of respect for the unit's heritage when the traditions began the unit was simply rotated into the garrisons.
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
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| Posted: 17-May-2003 10:03 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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Either that or you use it against vehicles. Clan Honor only applies to mechwarriors...
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
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| Posted: 17-May-2003 23:51 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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I just finished writing this for this same thread over at the Heavymetal forum so I'll just use it again here. Be warned, its long.
The Icestorm is present in numbers in only two Clans, Ice Hellion and Wolf. In at least the Wolves-in-exile I can see this mech being used and even wanted, they are most flexible and adaptable of the Clans, the closest to being real inheritors of General Kerensky's hopes for the descendants of the exodus.
Perhaps when I started I should rather have asked this; since this mech violates the Clan's way of battle and was built when the only people the Clans were fighting was other Clanners, why was it built? Surely the notions of proper ways to do battle would bear a clear influence on just what gets built for them to use in battle. I ask it now because I had all day at work to think this over.
And in that vein, just how many Clans would even have any artillery? Cannon or missile?
None of the 3050 Clan Omnis have Arrow IV in either the primary or variants. The Naga is the only 3055 Clan mech to use Arrow IV. Almost all of them are in Clan Wolf, no other Clan is mentioned by name. Almost all the time they are bid out of the battle and most warriors shun piloting one or even standing in the vicinity of one even in Clan Wolf. So what other Clan would even accept one as victory loot, let alone fight a trial of possession for a Naga?
"Piloting a Naga brings no honor to the warrior, and reconfiguring an honorless weapon goes beyond a waste of time and materiel. Some reports state that Clan Wolf warriors at times deliberatly left their accompanyiing Nagas unprotected to face Inner Sphere Mechs alone."
The 3050 has 3 Clan omnis with TAG present on a variant but none on a primary and all three are the smallest of the light class. The Uller-C (fluff says Ullers are mostly Jade Falcons) is called a very specialised urban-only version (hence rare). The Koshi-A (fluff says Koshis are mainly Smoke Jaguars) is "occasionally used" and aside from TAG is entirely anti-infantry with 2 MGs, a flamer, 2 A-pods, and 2 anti-missiles with 3 tons of ammo (hence rare). the Dasher-A (fluff says it is a less common design and usually a Ghost Bear) is "seen only on rare occasions". Because Clan warriors feel dishonored and insulted by using TAG maybe?
In the 3055 TRO only one Clan mech uses TAG. The 40 ton Phantom Omni has TAG in the primary config. It is like the Naga a Wolf mech, which would seem to mean it is the Naga's partner in the field, and thus the mech that keeps trying to leave Nagas to be killed or captured by the enemy instead of working with them to inflict damage on the enemy. The fluff says the Wolves use this mech only sparingly in only a few clusters, due to it being overshadowed by the Fenris. Or is that because any right-minded Clanner would feel as dishonored to spot for a Naga as he would be to pilot a Naga?
In the 3058 TRO, again, not one Clan mech is said to use an Arrow IV, but a nice variety of mechs or variants that are packing TAG gear can be found.
The 25 ton Fire Falcon "seen sporadically" in the Jade Falcons has TAG in the D variant. And here's the kicker and I quote the canon fluff; "As much tactical sense as the configuration makes, however, it is anathema to the traditional Jade Falcon perspective of honorable combat in one-on-one duels. Therefore, this configuration will probably never appear in front-line units."
I put it to you that it would never appear in a 2nd-line unit either since even the 2nd-line and freebirth warriors have all been taught to be good little Clanners.
The Hankyu, built by Smoke Jaguar, has TAG on the primary version? How can this be? The most anal retentive Clan outside of the Jade Falcons would build a TAG mech? I don't think so.
The Nabori-Nin also has TAG on the primary, but this mech is very uncommon and seems to be a Nova Cat mech. The fluff speculates that it is a new design, as are the Fire Falcon and Hankyu as well. But from the Clan viewpoint, I can only see the Nova Cats being at all willing to even test a TAG mech. The Jade Falcons and Smoke Jaguars would spit at anyone who even suggested doing so.
Going on in the 3058 TRO, the Jade Falcon Black Lanner-A has TAG and is the very first clan mech primary or variant with TAG on it described as a "common" version and sounds like it is expected to operate behind enemy lines, first seen at Tukayid. But does it not violate Jade Falcon honor to sneak up from behind and spot for artillery fire?
The Cauldron-Born-B has TAG, but again this is a new Smoke Jaguar design. I can see other Clans such as the Diamond Sharks or Nova Cats building this variant, but not the Smoke Jaguars. They died because they were much too arrogant to change their tactics.
Now I'm flipping through the 3060 again, the Icestorm again, Ice Hellion and Wolf, but built long ago, and hence a huge hole in Clan canon fluff. Then there's the Stalking Spider of Clan Cloud Cobra, first bult in 3059 and has a variant with TAG. This I can see, by this time the Clans are said by the Canon to be changing the way they fight to adapt to Inner Sphere tactics.
Since 3055 I have seen no more Clan mechs that use an Arrow IV. Among the 3060 vehicles, the Asshur Artillery Spotter has TAG, an older design and the fluff says only the Ghost Bears and Steel Vipers have used them in the Inner Sphere, but since so far only the Wolve's Naga has Arrow IV, what does it spot for with TAG for those Clans?
The Hells Horses Epona tank has TAG on the A and C variants.
At last we get to the tank with the awful Aztec name no one can pronounce. It has 2 Arrow IV launchers on it. The fluff says it was built while Nicholas Kerensky was still alive and under Deployment only Clan Jade Falcon is mentioned, but at least they finally have something for their anathema TAG mechs to spot for, unlike the Smoke Jaguars.
The Fluff is real interesting for this HUITZILOPOCHTLI (slap the designer, the name of a weapon system should be something anyone can say over the radio). "The Star League Defense Forces who joined Kerensky in the Exodus included few artillery pieces in their armament, and most of those were destroyed in the Civil War, leaving the Clans woefully lacking in support weapons. Equipping mechs with Arrow IV launchers proved moderatly effective but was considered a misuse of mechs, and assignment to such hybrid machines was not highly regarded."
This says to me that even the Clans who field anything with TAG on it DO NOT have much of a supply of SLDF Padilla tanks with Arrow IV or even much in the way of Thors, Marksmen, or Long Toms either.
Now we reach the 3067 TRO. In Clan Hells Horses, the Hephaestus tank built in 3064 has TAG and that's it for 3067 Clan vehicles. And at last a 2nd Arrow IV mech is sighted, the 70 ton Bowman. It is at least appropriatly built by the Hells Horses and "exceedingly rare" in any other Clan. Under variants it says "As it is such an unpopular design, variants of the basic chassis are common." Variants that remove the despised Arrow IV that is.
So to sum up, what we have is the only two Arrow IV shooting mechs are deployed entirely or almost entirely by the only two Clans I can really see being at all willing to use them. The Wolves, since they are the most "progressive" Clan. And the Hells Horses since they are the most vehicle oriented Clan and are thus easily the most "combined arms" Clan. The only tank with Arrow IV aside from the very few old Star League ones that may still be intact is the Aztec tank which only the Jade Falcons are mentioned as using.
So any TAG mech anywhere else seems not to have anything to spot fire for, unless we just say that since that Aztec tank was built so far back, everybody has some.
Of course, certain Clans such as the Jade Falcons or Smoke Jaguars would have in accordance with their attitudes, removed artillery from their active forces if not simply outright scrapped such units, but yet they have mechs with TAG in their touman and the Falcons have that big tank. Other Clans would simply have been happy to trade off their artillery units to the Hell's Horses.
I guess that out of all of this page flipping to write this evaluation of Clan artillery and TAG use I am forced to ask, as I did in that starting post, did the Clanner who built this stuff ever even read his own fluff text?
Like many other old timer type players I at first rejected the Clans, and even though I now accept them, I have only a very few times played in games with Clanners in it and most of those were some custom built Clan with custom mechs some other guy made. I was buying and painting minis for at least 5 years or more, starting about 89-90 before I ever bought my first Clan mini.
I guess this thread should just be written down as yet another reason why FASA went down and why they did it to themselves, just shot themselves in the foot with their own damn fluff.
TAG and artillery are yet another thing Clan players can do that goes against what the Clans are said to be, yet another self-contradiction that did so much to hurt the Clans in the eyes of players when they first appeared and thus hurt our game and thus also hurt FASA's profits and player base.
It seems to me that I have at long last realised through this that more than a few at FASA were making up new stuff without even bothering to read their own fluff, an appaling lack of workmanship. In the movies, they have people called "continuity" somethings whose only job is to make sure everythings fits into place from one scene to the next in the movies. They are the ones who make sure the shirt Mel Gibson is wearing inside the house is the same one he is wearing after he steps through the door to go outside.
Obviously, no one at FASA made any real effort to cover this base and maybe deep down their sales and player base were in decline because the rest of us unconsciously knew that. Instead the stream of new game products would seem to have fallen under the sway of foot-shooting fools who didn't bother to make sure their new stuff jibed decently with already published canon.
From what I have seen so far of MWDA, I have formed the belief that the foot-shooting fool element of old FASA is now working (if any of these folks are still working) over at Whizkids where they are giving us the jihad to write themselves out of the corner they wrote themselves into to begin with. Whatever the case may be, I sure hope the foot-shooters are not now working for Fanpro lest we see the Smoke Jaguars make a comeback in form of combined arms RCTs with whole lances of Arrow IV mechs in every battalion.
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
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| Posted: 18-May-2003 15:19 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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I think they must have had a design team for the mech's, and a seperate group for fluff. I would like to see the universe restarted in 3025 or 3050, with a new set of rules for weapons that will help keep the clans in line and also give them some playability (I think aside form using their mech's ROLEplaying a clanner is horribly lame) Loosen their rules somewhat or somthing.
But I think the reason for the mech is they are OLD and were used BEFORE the strict clan guidelines were implemented. I think what is going unsaid is that mechs like the Icestorm are not part of the main force but used mainly for Garrison, where you may find more of the arrow launchers.
But with the way the fluff is written who knows..
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If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
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| Posted: 19-May-2003 06:37 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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The Icestorm is also present in frontline Ice Hellion units. But what really got me is how stuff that goes against the Clan way is there in the TROs for them to use. It is no wonder so many players call themselves Clanners when the truth is that they are merely using Clan mechs and fighting like Spheroids would. After all, even the Clans fluff and equipments fluff have that built in contradiction.
I did another long winded post furthur exploring this theme in a thread of the same title over the the Heavymetal forums if anyone wants to read it since I think I'll refrain from copying it over to to here.
Oh, yeah. I do agree on the 3050 Clan stuff getting a pass on this point. Back then the Clan writers weren't likely themselves sure of what the Clans were about. But the Ice Hellion is in the 3060 and by the time the 3055 TRO came out, nobody at FASA could claim they didn't know how Clanners were supposed to be fighting, so why did they keep making up new Clan gear that went against the Clan way? They must have forgot to read their own fluff if the only excuse I can think of.
[ This Message was edited by: Gunslinger Patch on 2003-05-19 06:41 ]
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
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| Posted: 19-May-2003 14:23 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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You porbably have 3 to 6 different sets of writers in that time frame. You may even have as many designers as well. and if group a normally writes and designs for Inner Sphere, and they have been moved to the clan front because they are the more senior group.
/shrug Hard to say.
It is a reason thouogh why Im for moving back in time and starting over again. I would just like to see it done right.
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Stinger
:: how jedi are you? ::
[ This Message was edited by: Stinger on 2003-05-19 14:24 ]
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
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| Posted: 19-May-2003 21:58 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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I too would like like to see a rewind on the timeline. But my main reason for wanting it is actually the fiction novels. It should have taken Prince Victor 2 or 3 books to deal with Little Sister after he learned she was the murderer of their mother, not 10 or 20 books.
I could live with the Clans, faults and all. But it was making Archon Melissa's death the major event in the Universe post-Tukayid and then spending 10 game-years and so many novels trotting out real lame excuses for why almost every last major Inner Sphere character knew Katherine did it, yet could do nothing at all about that murder that I have the worst problem with. In my opinion that fictional mess was probably the largest of the reasons FASA was in financial decline.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
Senior Tech Specialist
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| Posted: 20-May-2003 07:52 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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You can tell you have a degree in history... The Verboseness of the posts, suggests something near and dear to your Heart. 
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
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| Posted: 20-May-2003 19:29 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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Lol. I do get into my fiction at times, my history too. 
That part where the plotline turned to disappointment was the scene in whatever novel where Victor realises (because they all tell him) that the entire Kell family, the Allard-Laios, the Hasek-Davions, and even the Kurita family all know very well that Little Sister did it and they all offer to help Victor deal with her. Christ on a Crutch, by then even Thomas Marik knew without a doubt it was Little Sister.
So what does supervictor do? He says no, that's what he does! He could have left for Tharkad inside of a week leading a dozen uberelite regiments like a lawful ruler should but instead he says no, leading to a great deal of wasted paper (and my wasted dollars buying that paper) and a stupendous civil war devastating hundreds of worlds and the entire Fedcom military and killing millions (or more than that as the fluff may read).
Truly that moment in Battletech fiction history is a subject worthy of some serious ranting.
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Stinger
The Knights of Chaos
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| Posted: 20-May-2003 21:14 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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Ive been thinking about this.
If I remember correctely at some point in this area Micheal Stackpool left (for thoes of you that dont like him sorry for bringing him up, but I did like what he did with the universe). And I remember reading that several others left or were let go. I also remember that they had several of thoes people running thevarious houses and or mercenary units. With out them the people that ran the units that didnt leave were able to do just about anything they wanted.
Best example House Liao (sorry OD and any other capellan supportes):
Now in this time House Liao IIRC suddenely stumbeled across sever star league factories. And started a massive build up of forces. With out someone running the davion side to put this in check the weakest or second weakest house was allowed to become one of the strongest if not the strongest.
Now the problesm I have is if I was running the Davion house and as soon as I got wind of the finding (and with the use of spies IT WOULD HAPPEN) The first thing I would have done is drop 5 to 15 regiments and taken it. I think everyone would agree that this more logical. Put your self in that position and you would have to do the same thing.
And if you noticed the way that Victor changed in the last few books after Stackpool left, He went from being a fairly strong willed leader to being a fairly big whimp. And that is because the people that were left at fasa were able to make these ludicrus changes to the houses they didnt run, all so they could make their house stronger with out some one saying you cant do that because I'm countering your move with this move.
Now I may be wrong (its happened before and it WILL happen again) But I do seem to remember a drastic change in character and the way the universe worked after Stackpool left. And though some of you will disagree I think his leaving hurt the universe more than helped.
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Stinger
If it's "creepy" to use the Internet, military satellites, and robot aircraft to find a house full of gorgeous young models so I can drop in on them unexpected, then FINE, I'm "creepy". Howard Wolowitz. BBT.
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
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| Posted: 21-May-2003 01:16 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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Lawd, we'd have to fund a research grant to have a decent chance of finding out who was at FASA when and which decisions they made. I have no idea of that myself, I just figure somebody was making wrong choices somewhere in there and took FASA down a wrong path and I hope whoever that was is not over at Fanpro doing it again.
I've posted defenses of Stackpole on occasion, but here at the Bar and Grill the anti-Stackpoles are by far the majority opinion.
For myself I think that he had decent control over the major events of the Return of Kerensky trilogy and maybe the initial years of the Clans, but after that someone else was writing the plot synopsis and he was just paid to write the events and action to fit that architecture.
I've never got into thinking about the dates of FASA's changes per se, but at some point Stackpole was writing for Star Wars and doing other stuff with little Btech writing and probably wasn't nearly as well connected to FASA at that time as he was in the golden days and the once great influence he had on shaping the universe must have been mostly dimished. And perhaps the people with whom he had worked in that golden time were no longer at FASA themselves, hence the friendships and allies that had helped give him that influence were likely gone from FASA as well.
Man, it's a good thing I've picked up the habit of copying my posts onto the clipboard before I hit submit. My modem went offline while I was writing it and I would have been stuck trying to write the same post twice otherwise. Unless you have the ability of total recal it is impossible to write the same post twice.
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Sir Henry
Team Bansai
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| Posted: 21-May-2003 07:45 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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I know that feeling.
You have to try to remember everything the way it was.... and end up making totally different mistakes... 
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Sir Henry
A Dragon in the disguise of a bunny, is still a Dragon.
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
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| Posted: 27-May-2003 23:48 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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(snip)
But I think the reason for the mech is they are OLD and were used BEFORE the strict clan guidelines were implemented. I think what is going unsaid is that mechs like the Icestorm are not part of the main force but used mainly for Garrison, where you may find more of the arrow launchers.
(snip)
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There you have it. The Tag and Arrow IV varients are garrison mechs and assigned to Dezgra/ Solahmna Warriors. they are used beat off attacks by the Dark Caste, and other tasks below most warriors efforts. If there are no Arrow IV carrying mechs, I am sure that they are mounted as part of the ground defenses. So TAG equipped mechs would still have something to spot for (even if just a bunch of freeborn militia cowering in a bunker)
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Paul
Capellan Confederation
Sang-wei
Joined: 25-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 30-May-2003 09:01 Post subject: RE: Traitor mech |
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Wow. That's some essay. Nice research.
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On 2003-05-17 23:51, Gunslinger Patch wrote:
since this mech violates the Clan's way of battle and was built when the only people the Clans were fighting was other Clanners, why was it built?
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[snip]
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TAG and artillery are yet another thing Clan players can do that goes against what the Clans are said to be, yet another self-contradiction
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I've wondered about such stuff often myself.
As you noted, it's not just TAG / Arrow IV neither. There's FASCAM, a rather indirect method of striking your opponents.
Several 'Mechs are equipped with NARC, although it is fairly rare, and seems to be typically used to support one's own missile tubes (a decidedly inefficient approach since NARC only becomes worth the effort when you're doing it for several other units).
The fluff for a Nova calls it a support Mech.
Multiple configurations of OmniMechs also suggest their main use is to supply supporting fire.
So, how does all this mesh?
It kinda does.
Like several people noted, vehicles and standard infantry fall outside the normal zellbrigen equation. They're also fairly vulnerable to such things as artillery, mines and massed LRM fire.
These units are also typically distributed among Clans known for their liberal stance towards Clan honor, or because of their preference for combined arms.
As for Clan culture, consider that nothing is more important then victory. Nothing. One's personal honor comes secondary to a victory for the Clan. In that context, the dishonor of having to pilot an artillery unit is offset by the increased chance of victory.
Doesn't mean they like it, and fluff is pretty clear about that.
This victory above all attitude is esspecially prevalent in secondline and solahma units, in which last-ditch and desperate actions are common to try and either redeem oneself, or to be noticed enough to be allowed into a more prestigious unit (in which it becomes more important to fuss about personal honor).
Also, someone else observed that they do face opponents they consider dishonorable from time to time. Why even bother giving them a chance at honorable combat when they're worth nothing more then artillery shells?
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Surely the notions of proper ways to do battle would bear a clear influence on just what gets built for them to use in battle.
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It certainly does. You yourself noted how rare these things are.
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And in that vein, just how many Clans would even have any artillery? Cannon or missile?
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All of them.
Most just about never use them. CW, CHH and CIH are fairly famous examples of artillery users, but many other Clans do still use it on occasion.
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Because Clan warriors feel dishonored and insulted by using TAG maybe?
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A fair assumption. But just feeling that way only gets you so far when you fail to Refuse your commander's order. Odds are such configurations are not the common preference.
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The Hankyu, built by Smoke Jaguar, has TAG on the primary version? How can this be? The most anal retentive Clan outside of the Jade Falcons would build a TAG mech? I don't think so.
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Sure they would. I agree with you that they're the least tactically creative Clan in known space, but they're not completely stupid. Note that this configuration was only speculated about on Luthien, making the TAG perhaps a response to the common use of vehicles in the Inner Sphere. It also carries a BAP.
Also note that C* had not physically seen that configuration, that CSJ had only just either acquired or redeployed the Cauldron Born (most CSJ fans insists its a design of CSJ origin, I'm not convinced) and as such it could even be inaccurate. It's also no trouble swapping it out for a laser or extra heatsink.
(Can't recall if that CB on Huntress had a TAG mounted or not)
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I can only see the Nova Cats being at all willing to even test a TAG mech.
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IIRC (debatable) I think CNC used artillery on Tukayyid.
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The Jade Falcons and Smoke Jaguars would spit at anyone who even suggested doing so.
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Even if they spit, they might have to put up with it anyway.
Also, that's just 2/17 CLans, and arguably the two most conservative.
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But does it not violate Jade Falcon honor to sneak up from behind and spot for artillery fire?
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Then they sneak up from the front. 
An issue is always your target and how honorable you view them.
A potentially greater issue is in how far you're putting aside your personal honor in favor of the Clan's or even just your unit's honor. Remember Alyina(sp?) where they started grouping on Feddies to get at Victor?
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Among the 3060 vehicles, the Asshur Artillery Spotter has TAG, an older design and the fluff says only the Ghost Bears and Steel Vipers have used them in the Inner Sphere, but since so far only the Wolve's Naga has Arrow IV, what does it spot for with TAG for those Clans?
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Another good point. Almost certainly, the majority of artillery launching units are vehicles. After all, most Clans dont even care about the honor of their vehicle crews.
Plenty of SLDF Arrow IV tanks.
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"The Star League Defense Forces who joined Kerensky in the Exodus included few artillery pieces in their armament, and most of those were destroyed in the Civil War, leaving the Clans woefully lacking in support weapons. Equipping mechs with Arrow IV launchers proved moderatly effective but was considered a misuse of mechs, and assignment to such hybrid machines was not highly regarded."
This says to me that even the Clans who field anything with TAG on it DO NOT have much of a supply of SLDF Padilla tanks with Arrow IV or even much in the way of Thors, Marksmen, or Long Toms either.
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Agreed. Ignore the above remark then.
However, this also proves that they simply started producing new vehicles to fill this gap.
Also, considering the almost certainly limited use among the Clans, and the absolutely VAST amounts of artillery your average SLDF Division carries, even 0.1% of those pieces would still be enough to give every Clan multiple batteries.
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did the Clanner who built this stuff ever even read his own fluff text?
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Beats me. It's not logical to assume you can apply a single set of rules and perspectives to all Clans, however. The bits of fluff you've dug up clearly illustrate this. Artillery is used by MANY Clans.
That said, they did stumble on occasion. It's entirely logical to assume that when they started the BoK line, they had a lot fleshed out, but not all of it, changing some elements as they went along. This seems a common thing in the BT universe, and it makes sense to. After all, if you wait until you have all the answers, you'll never publish anything.
The main issues seem to be covered however. And even artillery can be explained (as I've tried to do).
So is it really that big of a problem? =)
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I guess this thread should just be written down as yet another reason why FASA went down and why they did it to themselves, just shot themselves in the foot with their own damn fluff.
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Nah, the main reason FASA went down is because of the Unseen lawsuit, and poor money management. They let FI go for far to little, from what tidbits I've seen cross the web back then.
Inconsistencies with fluff is an annoyance, but hardly something that sunk their boat.
And heck, even Clan fluff is far more consistent and accurate then the old House Books.
Current day fluff is far more consistent then 3050 era fluff. I'm seeing a bit more now of the effort to ensure continuity, and it seems to involve far more manhours then just normal production.
The player base decline, I'm not sure if you can place the finger on a single source there. Certainly, a lot of people disliked the Clans to the point of ignoring anything after 3050. Just like many are ignoring the Jihad and beyond. BT players are a decidedly conservative bunch (I'm no exception).
But far more was going on then just those few vocal fans who decided to walk away. And you'll note that a lot of them mellowed with time.
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In the movies, they have people called "continuity" somethings
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Aye, they have em at FP and WK to. It's the same guy. Randall Bills. Having the same person do it on both ends certainly makes things more consistent.
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From what I have seen so far of MWDA, I have formed the belief that the foot-shooting fool element of old FASA is now working (if any of these folks are still working) over at Whizkids where they are giving us the jihad to write themselves out of the corner they wrote themselves into to begin with.
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?
I think I'll spare you the whole pro MWDA litany, I'm sure you've heard it enough. Let me just say I disagree with you, and that you're incorrect about several points.
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Whatever the case may be, I sure hope the foot-shooters are not now working for Fanpro lest we see the Smoke Jaguars make a comeback in form of combined arms RCTs with whole lances of Arrow IV mechs in every battalion.
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No chance of that one.
Paul
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