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jymset
Scavenger
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Location: Germany
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 Posted: 17-Jan-2005 04:53 Post subject: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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Hi. This idea has been floating around my thoughts for, well, years. Never spoke up, though.
One of the main weaknesses of BT compared to Warhammer is the difficulty for the wargamer to get a distinct sense of direction. I know quite a few people who are interested in wargaming, but aren't up for any sort of role-playing at all. They don't read all these 1000s of pages as some of us have (I know I have, yet many people on this board have a more accurate knowledge of the universe than me!).
Strangely enough, at the same time, I've also heard complaints about the lack of structure in forces. And that, to a certain extent, is true: Technically, anyone can use any 'mech, no matter which faction he is from. And my bro took that a step further: if you take that a step further, and disassemble a 'mech into its separate parts, all 'mechs come down to a common denominator. So what's the point?
I found it quite difficult to argue against that train of thought. My arguments came down to this: I only play with published 'mechs. I try to use them according to fluff.
But what about the uninitiated yet experienced wargamer?
Now, I have to admit, I admire the army books of Warhammer. Sure, they are weak as .... in terms of fluff. But they give a feel of the faction, and solid rules how to build a force for them. Ideal for people who just want to game..... with distinct 'armies'!
My question: Would it be possible to make something similar for BT?
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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jymset
Scavenger
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Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 17-Jan-2005 05:04 Post subject: RE: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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I decided to put my own take on this in a separate message, to make sure that the above won't be too long a read....
Just take 3025, for instance. 7 books could be published: for the 5 houses, for mercenaries and for the Periphery. Each of these would contain, I don't know, about 5-10 different lists? Firstly, a generic one, for people who don't really give a damn at all. And then some major units. Liao could have several warrior houses and the Death Commandos, for instance. The mercenaries could contain some major units like the Eridani Light Horse, etc. Same with Periphery.
Of course, they would follow a common theme. The 'mechs available being the obvious one. There would, of course, always be notable exceptions: For instance, the Dragoons have access to a lot of specialized units. The Periphery could contain 'mystery' attackers, meaning anonymous ComStar strike forces (if you look at some of the old, older fluff, you will find articles about those attacks). They could use the Star League units out of TRO: 3025 revised.
Unit selection would probably have quite a few rules to follow. Which hopefully won't mean that they will be complicated:
Units would have to be purchased in, well, units (lances, companies, etc).
The price would be calculated in BV, the accepted form of playing BT. Equal value, but modified as to the scenarios described in MR.
Then there would have to be some sort of table, detailing which 'mechs are available, and in which proportions. (ie: standard IS company would have, what, 6 medium 'mechs, 3-4 lights, 1-2 heavies, 0-1 assault?)
Optional rules on the first level would have to detail how combined arms are proportioned, concerning infantry and vehicles. Taking it yet a level further would be to include Aerospace elements.
I don't know guys. Do you think this would be an idea worth following up?
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 17-Jan-2005 09:37 Post subject: RE: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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I think it's a good idea personally; the unit selection tables that were published in the field manuals were a step in the right direction; a lot of the "special" rules for individual regiments were pretty broken though.
You would have to have some sort of guidelines about lance structure etc. etc. This would have to be broken down by house; Kurita would have lots of Panther lances for example, and Liao would have some Vindicator companies...or battalions even. Steiner medium lances would be a hodgepodge, but they might have a greater proportion of heavy and assault lances.
Another thing I would like to see in btech is some sort of rules covering unit cohesion on the field; sure, your twelve 'mechs might be theoretically organized into lances, but that means absolutely nothing in terms of how you can deploy on the field. (this is another idea I'm getting from Warhammer, as well as quite a few other older war games).
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Erenon
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Sergeant
Joined: 04-Jun-2004 00:00
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Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 17-Jan-2005 18:22 Post subject: RE: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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That's actually a really good idea.. who knows maybe someone might get minaturised battlemechs.. mount four (or five) on a stand and use battleforce 2 rules.. 
Seriously though i like the idea.. just have to remember that no state has truly fixed armies.. lots of them use mechs that are no longer in production, salvaged from the battlefields, etc etc.
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"My job is to keep the majority of people in this country alive. That's it. If fifty-one percent eat a meal tomorrow and forty-nine percent don't, I've done my job." - The Beast (AKA The President), Transmetropolitan
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 17-Jan-2005 21:43 Post subject: RE: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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Don't we have this already in the form of the Field Manuals?
And if you recall when FASA would put Scenario packs they would give you all the mechs each unit had and then in the back for books like Luithen and Tyuikiad they would give you the BF and BF2 info so you could do large scale fighting. But alas according to some folks at FASA or someone who did their marketing studies claimed that these books aka the Scenario Packs didn't sell.
And we had a similar setup in the back of the Clan Wolf SourceBook and the Falcon Sourcebook that listed what unit had what as was done in the Wolf's Dragoon sourcebook.
So the idea has been tried before in a different format...
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Erenon
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Sergeant
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Location: Singapore
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| Posted: 17-Jan-2005 21:46 Post subject: RE: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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Maybe it was the wrong format Karagin..
_________________
"My job is to keep the majority of people in this country alive. That's it. If fifty-one percent eat a meal tomorrow and forty-nine percent don't, I've done my job." - The Beast (AKA The President), Transmetropolitan
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Jan-2005 00:48 Post subject: RE: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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Quote:
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On 2005-01-17 21:46, Erenon wrote:
Maybe it was the wrong format Karagin..
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Wrong format? How so? The sources books I mentioned above gave you pilot, gunnery and mech or vehicle that is used as well as the name of the pilot. As well as unit info as to the general background of the star or what not. So what else is needed?
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: 18-Jan-2005 02:34 Post subject: RE: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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Ah, but I was really speaking of a different format. I have read the books you speak of, in fact, I own them all. And yes, they were absolutely excellent. I only received Wolf's Dragoons 2 months ago, and it is possibly my favourite volume ever!
But I did mean something different: Books which give different table-top gamers definite rules to construct distinct forces of their own.
They get to choose their own stuff. With certain guidelines to make sure that one side is not interchangable with the other.
Really, I was thinking of something like that:
5000BV a side, Davion can choose from this list........., for every assault there have to be .... heavies, etc,. Which leaves the problem of how to devise a table-system by which the rarity of separate designs can be made obvious (Davion fields both Valkyries and Javelins. Both are light, but the former is more common than the latter....).
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 4120
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Jan-2005 14:02 Post subject: RE: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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Quote:
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On 2005-01-18 02:34, jymset wrote:
Ah, but I was really speaking of a different format. I have read the books you speak of, in fact, I own them all. And yes, they were absolutely excellent. I only received Wolf's Dragoons 2 months ago, and it is possibly my favourite volume ever!
But I did mean something different: Books which give different table-top gamers definite rules to construct distinct forces of their own.
They get to choose their own stuff. With certain guidelines to make sure that one side is not interchangable with the other.
Really, I was thinking of something like that:
5000BV a side, Davion can choose from this list........., for every assault there have to be .... heavies, etc,. Which leaves the problem of how to devise a table-system by which the rarity of separate designs can be made obvious (Davion fields both Valkyries and Javelins. Both are light, but the former is more common than the latter....).
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In the House FMs there are random charts that have all of the mechs a faction can have all ready to do excatly what you are suggesting for a series of books. Also in the different FMs and FM Updates they added little things to allow other groups to have the chance to use say ComStar stuff as is the case with Brion's Legion. Everything you seems to want in a new book is already there in the exsiting books.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Rarich
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 991
Location: United States
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| Posted: 18-Jan-2005 20:22 Post subject: RE: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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I think you may have a good idea there. I have seen the "army lists" for warhammer 40K that my brother in law has, and they seem to do a good job of balancing things while allowing for personality between units. The chapters of space marines become more distinct, and the focus of the various other factions becomes apparent.
It would force more tactical creativity on a lot of people, including me.
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Life is a sexually transmitted terminal disease.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 18-Jan-2005 22:54 Post subject: RE: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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In level one, at least, there are a lot of designs which, while not particularly well-designed, can be deployed by the Houses en masse. Kurita is a particularly good example. A lot of their old Star League vintage 'mechs are in bad shape, or they don't have the parts to repair them if they're damaged, so the Kuritas hold back all of the Marauders and T-bolts and Battlemasters etc. etc. in the reserve units. Less capable Panthers and Dragons take up the slack. Liao's in a very similar situation. Do they have many Marauders...not really. They can throw a full battalion of Vindicators at you though, and repair or replace any ones you manage to take out as well.
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jymset
Scavenger
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: 19-Jan-2005 05:49 Post subject: RE: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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Quote:
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On 2005-01-18 14:02, Karagin wrote:
*snip* ....random charts that have all of the mechs a faction can have all ready to do excatly what you are suggesting for a series of books. *snip* |
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Nooooo..... Come on, you know me. I'm not a newbie who writes before he thinks. A problem for newcomers with those tables:
What if you roll something that you don't own? You either have to proxy the miniature or you reroll. The former won't be an option for a serious table-top wargamer, while the latter kinda makes the whole table redundant, right? It also doesn't take into account the whole equal-BV thing.
To use those tables effectively, you either have to have a huge choice (and not the custom-built, yet faction-representative force that the idea of an 'army' book strives for) or a huge knowledge of fluff and background, right?
Ok, just to recap my problem with your suggestion, which clearly shows that we are *NOT* thinking of the same thing:
Quote:
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....RANDOM CHARTS... |
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!!!!!! ....not what I'm thinking of....
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 18-Nov-2003 00:00
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| Posted: 19-Jan-2005 09:10 Post subject: RE: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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Some of us have self inflicted tactical training. I have to be one of the worst people when it comes to picking my lance for a battle. It can be fun to take on an opponent with less than superior odds then beat them.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Jan-2005 11:19 Post subject: RE: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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Quote:
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On 2005-01-19 05:49, jymset wrote:
Quote:
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On 2005-01-18 14:02, Karagin wrote:
*snip* ....random charts that have all of the mechs a faction can have all ready to do excatly what you are suggesting for a series of books. *snip* |
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Nooooo..... Come on, you know me. I'm not a newbie who writes before he thinks. A problem for newcomers with those tables:
What if you roll something that you don't own? You either have to proxy the miniature or you reroll. The former won't be an option for a serious table-top wargamer, while the latter kinda makes the whole table redundant, right? It also doesn't take into account the whole equal-BV thing.
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See that is the thing, not everyone is going to have every mini and thus proxy pieces will be used. So that point for the noraml players isn't important.
I have seen more folks use a Victor be something else and I have yet to see anyone complain about it.
Quote:
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To use those tables effectively, you either have to have a huge choice (and not the custom-built, yet faction-representative force that the idea of an 'army' book strives for) or a huge knowledge of fluff and background, right?
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No you don't need huge choices. You have the results right there. If you roll and get a 60 ton mech then you look at what choices are there FOR that house or clan. It's random, you don't go and just pick a T-bolt or a Rifleman or what ever you want. You go with the table results and move on to the next roll.
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Ok, just to recap my problem with your suggestion, which clearly shows that we are *NOT* thinking of the same thing:
Quote:
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....RANDOM CHARTS... |
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!!!!!! ....not what I'm thinking of....
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No you are thinking of book that feeds you an entire army and all you need to do is buy the miniatures. And I am pointing out that we already have this in BT in numerous ways ranging from the info and break down of units in the WC SB, the JF SB and the WD SB, as well as in the two BForce games and several other scenario packs and such. Everything that is needed from type of mech to pilots name, to piloting and gunnery is given as well as the unit he or she is with and the company and the lance.
Then if you want your own you have several ways already to make it, the random charts, which if used as meant to be gives you a force that each house would actually use, you have idea that you can make your own by going with what you like, no need for rolls, just some good fluff and poof a new unit, kind of like the WoB and their army  , or n even better way, look at who makes the mechs or what not and then check to see where they are located, some mechs won't be found in the hands of say Marik if they are made in the Fed-Suns and while a Panther would be a common mech in all the houses.
We really don't need a new book that recaps reduantant info. The FMs give us unit info and colors for the mechs cammo and what kind of speical things the normal everyday units can do and can't do. Then you flesh them out yourself or use what is given if the unit or group has a book out to tell you what they already have. I don't see the need for a new book telling us this already. Maybe some thing like this could be added to the next version of the BMR or CBT RPG or Merc Handbook, or even the next revison of the FMs, yes that is where this idea belongs, but it doesn't need to be it's own book.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 19-Jan-2005 14:11 Post subject: RE: Idea: 'army books' for BT |
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I believe you are miss understanding what he is pointing out here Karagin. He is not asking for a list of existent TOEs. What he is pointing out, if i understand him correctly, is a list of machines, only, used by each side. This list would list the percentage of availability of each Mech and Vehicle used by each faction. This would allow people who are not big on reading the fluff and background of BT to easily select a representative force, which they then could BUY and USE miniatures for.
So if a wargammer, not a BattleTech player, just wanted to play out skirmishes, he could quickly scan over the tables and select an appropriate amount of machines to use for that battle.
How i imagine these tables would be assembled is as such.
Force Selection Tables
1] select the engagement value in increments of 1000. [say 4000]
2] select max unit limit. [4 units]
3] select year and level of play. [say 3025, lvl 1]
4] select which faction you wish to deploy. [Kurita]
5] refer to appropriate table for the unit type you wish to deploy. [Mechs]
6] check unit availabilities for unit type.
Example Heavy Mech Table:
DRG-1C 1/2 per 1000
DRG-1N 1/4 per 1000
DRG-1G 1/8 per 1000
RFL-3N 1/8 per 1000
CPTL-1A 1/4 per 1000
CPTL-C1 1/4 per 1000
CPTL-C4 1/4 per 1000
CPTL-K2 1/8 per 1000
CRD-3K 1/8 per 1000
CRD-3R 1/4 per 1000
EXT-4A 1/12 per 1000
TDR-5S 1/8 per 1000
ARC-2K 1/4 per 1000
ARC-2R 1/4 per 1000
So in a 4000 engagement I could select 4 units from these.
2 DRG-1C
1 DRG-1N
0 DRG-1G
0 RFL-3N
1 CPTL-1A
1 CPTL-C1
1 CPTL-C4
0 CPTL-K2
0 CRD-3K
1 CRD-3R
0 EXT-4A
0 TDR-5S
1 ARC-2K
1 ARC-2R
Meaning any 4 mechs up to max number of each can be taken in my 4 unit Unit. of course, these would be further limited by BV and there numbers would be figured accordingly. Even thou I can select 3 DRGs and a CPTL, the BV for the engagement would force me to select less costly machines.
This sorta what I believe this suggestion was about. Frankly, I like the idea. I could use a central book with the availability and proliferation of each type and variant of each unit in each house. Also, a table listing the average availability of of green, regular, veteran, and elite crews/pilots in each house would be cool. I mean, how good is the likely hood of having a veteran or elite in a garrison lance?
[ This Message was edited by: Vagabond on 2005-01-19 14:15 ]
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