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SaberDance
Federated Suns
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Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
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 Posted: 31-Dec-2004 22:25 Post subject: Vindication, after a fashion |
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Many of you have heard me complain about Lucas's terrible work in the Star Wars universe, and how he has cast as the good guys the bad guys, and as the bad guys the good guys.
If you really desire, I will, in this thread, lay out my entire argument against Star Wars. However, I have always limited the scope of my critique- aesthetic, thematic, dramatic, cinematic, and social- to the prequels, thinking that the originals (minus that cursed dierctor's meddling) were very good.
I present another argument I find interesting, and more than a little compelling.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/248ipzbt.asp?pg=1
sorry for the edit. Wrong page number at the end.
[ This Message was edited by: SaberDance on 2004-12-31 22:26 ]
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
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Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 31-Dec-2004 22:49 Post subject: RE: Vindication, after a fashion |
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Okay...we all have issues with somethng in a movie or a book, hence the part about all of us having opinions.
Look at all of the discussion about what's wrong or right in BT. Or look at all of the talk about Dark Age and what it means or doesn't mean for BT.
One thing to remember is this Lucas is telling us the story his way, not ours. Yes there are issue with continutiy, mainly because we are all basing things off of hints and such from the novles, the comics and fan input both in other magazines or what they heard at a convention or from some who was there. Lucas did one thing that really allowed most things to fit better, he allowed the fans to add what they want via the novels and such and he allowed it because he had the all agree that he might or might not use it. Like the rumors abound about Boba Fett and the Stormtroopers...well he took some and went with them.
The whole rise of the Empire was fast, that has never changed. It was noted in Ep IV that is was a shock that the Emproer had gotten rid of the Senate and even then Imperial military folks were worried about how things would stay together. So it's not like all of this is 100% new to any of us.
Overall Star Wars is there to entertain and allow folks to have fun with. I don't like all that is done nor do I agree with a lot of the silliness that has come into it over time, hell I cringed about some of the stuff Marvel did with the comic book when they had it. Rabbit aliens and all that. But even then they did do some really good stories to fill in things prior to Ep IV and in between the other episodes as well as after the fact. As have Dark Horse comics. It's all a matter of prespective. If you go into a moive epecting one thing and it's not there then no, you are not going to like the movie. A great example of this was Pearl Harbor. I know a lot of folks who were expecting a remake of TORA TORA TORA, but that's not what they got.
Folks complained about things in Saving Private Ryan, from the uniforms to the weapons to how they marched along the way...show me a movie that folks haven't found something to complain about...even Disney has folks trying to find sexual stuff that may or may not be there.
It's a movie set in a fictional setting, there will be mistakes, things may not fully jive with the early movies, but that doesn't take away from the movies or the enjoyment of the story.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
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Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 01-Jan-2005 00:33 Post subject: RE: Vindication, after a fashion |
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I like that article, SaberDance. It makes a very good argument. In fact, I agreed with most everything except Alderaan. It's been my understanding that Alderaan truly was unarmed, and that this was general knowledge (for the characters). Then again, I'm not sure if that's from the movies or not; it's been a few years since I've seen them. Is it true that the books and stuff aren't canon?
I'd like to hear your argument, SaberDance, if you're don't mind presenting it.
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
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Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
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| Posted: 01-Jan-2005 04:11 Post subject: RE: Vindication, after a fashion |
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This argument is in three parts: this part is my analysis of the original trilogy.
My argument takes as a premise that everything in the original three movies as released on video prior to the Special Editions (as this is what I had to base my early opinions on) is correct and inerent (as the term canon would seem to indicate).
The Evil Empire is, in fact, evil and tyranical. The Emperor is evil incarnate, and Darth Vader is the former hero Anakin Skywalker corrupted by evil.
Luke Skywalker is the unknown heir of the hero of a past age, Anakin Skywalker (Obi-Wan tells Luke that his father was a good man and a hero of the Clone Wars). His uncle, knowing exactly what happened to Anakin Skywalker, wants to protect Luke (Owen tells Beru almost as much) from the same fate. More on this in a moment.
Han Solo is a hero who has fallen off his horse. He is really a good man, as evidenced by the presence of Chewbacca, who essentially is his conscience. However, Solo has seen too much of the world and has become slightly paranoid and cynical. Thus, he shoots Gredo rather than risk letting the bounty hunter shoot first.
Leia is the idealist. She knows what she is doing, but she has developed a Hero complex, which leads to many problems (getting too far ahead, staying too long, and in general she thinks she's invulnerable). She is, in many ways, the antithesis of Han Solo.
Obi-Wan is the connection to an age past. He is the relic of the same era as Anakin Skywalker. He alone retains the flames of former greatness.
Darth Vader was once like Obi-Wan, but through fate and circumstance, he came to a crossroad, and was forced to choose Evil to accomplish what he thought was good. More on this later.
In Star Wars: A New Hope, these disparate people are brought together in what is the triggering event for a tragic story. Luke is the reincarnation (metaphorically speaking) of Anakin. His life is, in many ways, a direct parallel to Anakin's life, leading up to the climactic same choice that Anakin faced.
Luke is a great pilot, like his father before him. Luke is a great warrior, like his father before him. Luke is strong in the force, like his father before him. This is set up and demonstrated in Episode IV.
Obi-Wan is the man who created Darth Vader, inadvertently though it may have been, and he did it because he thought he was persuing a higher good. For this reason, Obi-Wan is an equally tragic figure, and thus must die at the hands of the man that he created. However, in dieing, he severs Luke from the Past, and sets Luke on the road to redeem himself.
In Episode V, Luke must make a pilgrimage (in fact, something of a katabasis) to learn the ways of the Force (in the same way Oedipus had to visit the Furies to learn the ways of the oracles that cursed him). While he is there, he is confronted with the choice that Anakin faced. He fails. (The Cave scene). He is, however, called away by his friends, and here we have the first inkling of what separates Luke from Anakin.
Luke must go to save his friends, even if it means giving up the power of the Force. There, he faces Vader. Vader defeats Luke, and in the process, removes Luke's hand. He then offers Luke the Power to control the universe. Luke chooses not to choose. Had he said "no," Vader would surely have killed him. Had he said yes, he would have fallen like Anakin. Instead, Luke entrusts himself to fate and falls from the platform. His friends, ironically, save him.
Here, Lando is introduced as a replacement for Han, because Han has been frozen in carbonite.
In Episode VI, Luke must go to save his friends. However, in the process, he becomes cavalier in his attitude towards the Force (he tries to mind trick Jabba, he chokes the Gamorean guards). He is using too much power. Though in the end he is successful, he is touching the dark side (note, he is now dressed in blacks and greys where he used to wear white).
Wanting to earn more Power, he goes to visit Yoda, where he sees that even the great power of Yoda cannot stall death. He is also told that he must confront Vader.
That is, he must face the same choice Anakin faced.
Luke's friends go to Endor, Luke goes with them. He goes to confront Vader, and he again tries not to face the choice (remember how he first attacks the Emperor, and then hides from Vader).
Vader lures Luke out with the taunt of turning Leia. This gives us a hint as to what turned Vader. Luke attacks Vader viciously. Finally, he beats Vader down and returns his father's gift, chopping his father's hand off.
Luke looks at his own hand, and he realizes the choice Anakin faced (Lucas confirms this symbol in the documentary "From Star Wars to Jedi"). Anakin could decide to pursue personal power, or he could choose to pursue the good (Telos, if you will). The Emperor enunciates this choice. "Join Me, and take your Father's place." Hatred is not what causes the darkside. Hatred causes a thirst for power (Yoda was right when he said doubt led to fear, led to anger, led to hate, led to the darkside; he was just left out a step) which leads to the darkside. Luke, realizing the choice, turns away from Power.
"You've failed, you highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me."
Finally, Luke faces the choice, and chooses virtuously. The tragic cycle is broken.
The Emperor tries to kill Luke, but now redeemed, Anakin overthrows the emperor (who, like the tragic Obi-Wan, is killed by the thing he created).
In the end Vader/Anakin is killed by the very thing he created: his son. But, in the end, like Obi-Wan, he is redeemed and he passes the torch to Luke (the importance of the final scene).
Continued...
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
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Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
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| Posted: 01-Jan-2005 04:39 Post subject: RE: Vindication, after a fashion |
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In this part, I will take the analysis of the original trilogy to piece together what happened to Luke and Anakin, how there lives paralleled, and what happened to send them down such divergent paths.
We know that Luke has strong attachments to his friends. It is those attachments that draw him away from Power (leaving his training early, and his thoughts of them during the battle when he refuses to kill Vader). His friends, particularly his sister, Leia, act as a counterbalance to his power, pulling him closer to humanity. It is, in fact, his concern for them which sends him to face his destiny in Vader's choice in the first place.
I then think, that it is his friends which ultimately keep Luke alive and well. Recall, Han saves Luke at the first Death Star from Darth Vader (if you will allow the symbol, Han is saving Luke from the Dark Side; Obi-Wan, of course, helps). Essentially, the friends show Luke that there is more to life than being in control. His belief that they are dead (the Emperor tells him so) leads him to attack the Emperor. The realization that his father is still alive and redeemable reasserts the counterbalance, and Luke chooses correctly.
From this, we derive a theory of Star Wars metaphysics that says: Power corrupts, and that corruption leads to the dark side. Friends serve as a counter to Power, and thus are a buffer against the Dark Side.
Further, Luke is his Father, so from Luke's life we can piece together Anakin's.
Anakin was a fine pilot and warrior when Obi-Wan met him. There was a great war going on (for Luke, the Rebellion, for Anakin, the Clone Wars) and there was opportunity for Anakin to become a hero. He did. He destroyed a great threat to his people and became a powerful Jedi. He had friends, one of whom he became close to and married.
The Clone Wars, meanwhile, has weakened the structure of the Republic considerably. It is bankrupt, it is overwhelmed, and the war is depleting its resources (and its Jedi) at an alarming rate. Senator Palpatine offers an alternative (the New Order). With the institutions of the Senate weakened, Palpatine has more and more power delegated to him (I always figured he was seen as a pawn of several major players who didn't know he was really screwing them, sort of like Julius Caesar to Crassus and Pompey).
Eventually, he takes power. Obi-Wan, sensing danger, tries to provide for his friend, Anakin. Anakin, however, doesn't see the danger. When Anakin's wife becomes pregnant, Obi-Wan recognizes the danger, and is forced to steal her away in the night.
Anakin is furious that he has lost his family, and he thinks his friend. He challenges Obi-Wan to a duel. Obi-Wan beats him, and leaves him for dead. Anakin survives, though, and decides that the only way he must be in control, and this leads him to side with Palpatine, and to pronounce vendetta against the Jedi, who are a demonstration of everything he is renouncing. The Emperor, seeing the Jedi as a threat to his reign, agrees. The Jedi are obliterated.
Thus, Anakin lived as Luke lived up until the choice: at which point his family and friends were seemingly stripped from him, and their loss made him turn inwards, to Power, and thus to the Dark Side.
Lucas turns this whole metaphysics on its head. It is made clear in Episode II that it is, in fact the existence of friends and exterior connections that leads to the Dark Side. This is why the Jedi take young children, so they will have no such connections. It is why they ban marriage.
Now, some will here object that this fits the metaphysics perfectly. It is not Anakin's mother that sends him to the Dark Side, but her loss. I agree that prima facie, this seems true, and it allows that the Jedi might have acted in a tragic way, and the very institutions they created removed the counterbalances and led to their own demise. However, this is not what Lucas says in the commentary. This is not what is implied by relationship of Anakin and Padme. Instead, Lucas contends that it is these external relationships which lure Anakin to the darkside, rather than that they are the counter which prevents him from going there.
Remember further, Obi-Wan through his actions created Darth Vader. Anakin need not have become Vader if not for Obi-Wan removing the counterbalances. Episode II seems to indicate that it is the Jedi Order which removes the counterbalances (destroying Obi-Wan's character). The scene in the air-speeder after Padme falls seems indicative of this. Obi-Wan is the defender of the Order, and it is the Order which will be angry with Anakin if he goes to help his friend.
Thus, the Order, acting through Obi-Wan, sends Anakin to face Dooku, where he loses his arm (the symbol is wrecked by Lucas here). Anakin is never tempted by power here. He is, in fact, angerd by his impotence, but Dooku, unlike Vader, is merely a target, not someone who is tempting our protagonist. Anakin isn't facing a choice, he's acting out a kind of destiny (The prophesy).
The prophesy, I will hasten to add, has never been properly set up, and it doesn't relate to Anakin as much as it relates to the Force. This is not the Oracle at Delphi.
Continued...
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 01-Jan-2005 05:01 Post subject: RE: Vindication, after a fashion |
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So, in this post, I will offer how I think the prequels should have been done.
First, the Clone Wars. I must go to the Expanded Universe for this, namely to the "Heir to the Empire" trilogy. I do not mind this small jump though, because "heir" was personally aproved by Lucas, and I can therefore call it Canon.
The Clone Wars are brought about by clones going mad do to the Force Pressure on their minds. They embark on a quest to take over the galaxy. They must be fought by people, since new clones would join the other side. Thus, in the long war, the stocks of people, who have not had to work thus since they had robots and clones to do it, are rapidly depleted.
This is the BACKGROUND of the movie. It is a longstanding contention of mine that wars are inherently uninteresting. People care about battles. The months of nothing in between are dull. (Unless you are doing a character sketch. The D-Day plans are dull. Ike is interesting.) In this setting, Anakin should have been pressed into service to fight the clones. He would destroy something akin to the Death Star, and he would do it through pluck, skill, and the Force (I'm sorry, George, a Trade Federation Battleship is not comprable).
The whole adventure to Tatooine was a distraction. For that matter, so was most of Naboo.
Coruscant and the final space battle were the only really relevent parts of the story. I'm not even a really big fan of the Sith Lords motif.
This is how the first movie ends. With a few alterations, this is basically "The Phantom Menace."
The Second movie, however, must fully establish Anakin and his friends and family. This required a lot better love story than we got. It must also establish Anakin's connection to his family (a la having to go off to Cloud City to save them). It is also where he should have first been tempted by Power, and his friends and family should have acted like a counterweight. At the end of this movie, the Clone Wars should basically end, leaving the Jedi decimated many times over and the society week. Into the void steps Palpatine, offering a New Order, and Power to those who would share it. Padme and Obi-Wan keep Anakin from joining.
The battle of Genosis, while impressive, accomplished nothing in terms of story. It was a giant special effect. The same happened when Anakin battled Dooku. It was an impressive fight, but it did not advance the story.
Anakin, however, is blind, and in the third movie, he is too close to Palpatine. Padme becomes pregnant, and Obi-Wan spirits her away. Recall the endgame I suggested earlier. Without the counter, Anakin makes the wrong choice, and his tragic arc is complete.
Thus, the stage is set for the one who will redeem the fallen.
A minor additional note: If it has not already been written, one day I want to write a book about the relationship between authors, literature, and readers, and how literature can be removed from the hands of the author by its readers. The title of the book will be "Boba Fett is (Not) Dead."
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Rarich
Federated Suns
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Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 05-Jan-2005 04:33 Post subject: RE: Vindication, after a fashion |
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Given the time span, a case could be made for a long, drawn out civil war. Say something like the Protestant/ Catholic conflicts in Europe? (any Euros out there, input?). After all the originator of the over throw of the old order was still trying to secure his throne, and the remanants of the "Old Republic" were still trying to win it back.
I agree that the Jedi were kind of full of themselves, but then any Knight has to be almost by definition. Any government has only 1 reason for existence anyway, the people ruled must believe that it works. The Old Republic made the mistake of not working. King Louis of France made the same mistake, and other kings and dynasties thru history.
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Oafman
Draconis Combine
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| Posted: 05-Jan-2005 12:47 Post subject: RE: Vindication, after a fashion |
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long running civil wars? Just look at all of the good ol' boys in the south that still fly the confederate flag. That war ended HOW many years ago?
As to the problems with the Star Wars universe just follows the directions from MST3K. (paraphrasing) This is just a show so just relax.
If these movies were meant to be REAL they would not be labelled as science FICTION.
Just my 2 pence.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
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| Posted: 05-Jan-2005 13:24 Post subject: RE: Vindication, after a fashion |
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Quote:
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On 2005-01-05 12:47, Oafman wrote:
long running civil wars? Just look at all of the good ol' boys in the south that still fly the confederate flag. That war ended HOW many years ago?
As to the problems with the Star Wars universe just follows the directions from MST3K. (paraphrasing) This is just a show so just relax.
If these movies were meant to be REAL they would not be labelled as science FICTION.
Just my 2 pence.
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According to the offical SW site and the novels, the Clone Wars last for 3 to 5 years. That is about how long most real life civil wars have lasted. Some have gone on longer but most are over with in a few years.
And I agree this is a movie, that is made to tell a story about the same things that we all find interesting and enlightening in the fiction we read or watch. Hey if you look close enough there are similar points in the BT storyline as well.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
"Wasted trip Man. Nobody said nuthin' about lockin' horns with no tigers." Oddball
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