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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 671
Location: United Kingdom
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 Posted: 05-Mar-2005 05:03 Post subject: Why hate Stackpole? |
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Ok, i will probobly get flamed and hung, drawn and quartered for this. (Not that it bothers me im used to getting my ass kicked in Battletech!)
But how come there is such hatred for Stackpole? Maybe its because im a bit more sympathetic to his works because
A: I like Starwars and I, Jedi was a masterpiece, his NJO books were excellent too
B:I really think that his novels are good. Tend to have some very good ideas.
As i say i havent been into battletech as long as most of you, about 2-3 years tops. So i would not no what the universe was like before him.
I just remember looking in a tabletop game shop (took me 2 years to find anything battletech in UK!) looking at novels and seeing Stackpole and thinking Great!
OK, Flame away 
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Constant exposure to dangers will breed contempt for them-Seneca
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2005 05:09 Post subject: RE: Why hate Stackpole? |
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I like him too. Sure his novels have a more "cinematic" feel to them, but that's part of WHY I like him. The good guys win, the bad guys lose, and everybody lives happily ever after (at least, as happily as they can). 
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Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2005 05:49 Post subject: RE: Why hate Stackpole? |
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When he's bad, he is absolutely awful. When he's good, he can be (but not always is) great.
Confession: I am out of the novel loop. After the Twilight of the Clans series, I only read that Ghost Bear Mechwarrior novel and the Novacat one by Randall Bills. So anything more recent, I wouldn't know.
I liked the Warrior Trilogy. But it wasn't as great as the first Gray Death Legion (better than the following ones, though) nor anywhere as good as the sublime Charette books.
His greatest work came with the introduction of the clans. I love his Blood of Kerensky trilogy. I really enjoyed the three or so books that followed (Natural Selection, Assumption of Risk, Malicious Intent).
But: Grave Covenant (such a cool name for a novel!) was pretty bad (I liked that the Jade Falcons played such a major part, but I *HATED* that the Waco Rangers got destroyed on a simple whim), and Prince of Havoc was downright offensive! Really, any battlereport on any message board would not be worse! So, I guess after peaking out pretty early, he went onto a fierce downward spiral....
But, he is a mainstay. In his good times well comparable to other mainstays like Charette, Keith, Coleman, etc. And you get a better feel for his capabilities. I mean, Long wrote the two Black Thorns novels. The first one was great. The second one was awful. So where does that put him?
Truly, my favourite authors are Robert Thurston (it was through his rich depiction of Clan society that I became such a fan - even his contribution to the Twilight series, pretty much the main characters just sitting trapped in one spot, was excellent) and the great, wonderful, AWESOME Victor Milan. You ain't read anything if you haven't read the trilogy Close Quarters - Hearts of Chaos - Black Dragon. Gah! So much blood! So much sex, for that matter! So many brutal, mercyless deaths of main characters! And great humour, too!
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"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2005 08:56 Post subject: RE: Why hate Stackpole? |
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Because his characters are all one-dimensional.
Because his attempts to depict emotion are pitiful.
Because his battle scenes are repetative and predictable.
Because most of his books are actually two or three books bound together by only the loosest of structure; often times the various characters have absolutely nothing to do with one another, and are bound together only by the most tenuous of connections....basically the fact that they're all doing different things at the same time, light-years apart.
Oh, if you do happen to like Stackpole, I'm auctioning off a bunch of his novels right now....Natural Selection, Assumption of Risk, Bred for War, Millicious intent, and whatever the middle book of the Blood of Kerensky Trilogy was called...nothing quite like a shameless plug....at least my advertising is honest though...most advertisers try to take garbage and make it look like sugar 
[ This Message was edited by: mud on 2005-03-05 08:57 ]
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ralgith
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company
"Ralgith's Renegades"
Colonel
Joined: 18-Aug-2003 00:00
Posts: 2021
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2005 09:00 Post subject: RE: Why hate Stackpole? |
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I don't mind Stackpole, but sometimes he puts in too much drama and his action lacks... well action. Other than that his books are OK to Great. Other people seem to hate him, but I started on Stackpole with Star Wars novels also, so shoot me
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Colonel Ralgith t'Mayasara
Blighted Sun Battalion
1st Company 'Ralgith's Renegades'
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Ruger
Lyran Alliance
Hauptmann General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 2094
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2005 10:14 Post subject: RE: Why hate Stackpole? |
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Quote:
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On 2005-03-05 05:49, jymset wrote:
and the great, wonderful, AWESOME Victor Milan. You ain't read anything if you haven't read the trilogy Close Quarters - Hearts of Chaos - Black Dragon. Gah! So much blood! So much sex, for that matter! So many brutal, mercyless deaths of main characters! And great humour, too!
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Milan has also written one of the MechWarrior Dark Age novels...
Ruger
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Moonlapse Vertigo
Clan Goliath Scorpion
Star Captain
Joined: 02-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 207
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2005 10:30 Post subject: RE: Why hate Stackpole? |
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| His bad dialogue, his somewhat abrasive personality, his creation of munchy charecters like Morgan/Phelan Kell and Victor, his broad painting of factions as either "good" or "bad" and the bad guys suddenly becoming incompetent no matter how they were described previously (Jade Falcon, Liao ect), his changing of characters like Candance Liao, ect ect.
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2005 11:48 Post subject: RE: Why hate Stackpole? |
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I've never really disliked Stackpole that much. He's not as good as Pardoe, or the early Coleman, but I never really disliked his writing. The one book of the Warrior trilogy I have (the middle one) was great, and Blood of Kerensky was pretty good too. Grave Covenant was a bit too ambitious, and there I see the randomness mud's talking about. Here, there, then over there; trying to show the overall picture, but not doing it by following a character (or a small number of them) going through the story.
And his later battle scenes are terrible. Not so much for their predictability, although I've noticed some of that, but for the over-detail. It's liike taking a MegaMek report and trying to make it into a story.
I'm missing most of Stackpole's middle books (between Blood of Kerensky and Grave Covenant), so I don't know of those are for better or worse.
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On 2005-03-05 05:49, jymset wrote:
Grave Covenant (such a cool name for a novel!) was pretty bad (I liked that the Jade Falcons played such a major part, but I *HATED* that the Waco Rangers got destroyed on a simple whim)
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I don't think that this is Grave Covenant. This is the one with Coventry, whatever it's called.
And mud, what's your ebay username?
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"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close semblance to the first."
- Attributed to General Aleksandr Kerensky
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2005 11:50 Post subject: RE: Why hate Stackpole? |
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Almost forgot.
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On 2005-03-05 10:30, Moonlapse Vertigo wrote:
his changing of characters like Candance Liao, ect ect.
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When did he change Candace Liao?
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"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close semblance to the first."
- Attributed to General Aleksandr Kerensky
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Moonlapse Vertigo
Clan Goliath Scorpion
Star Captain
Joined: 02-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 207
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2005 11:59 Post subject: RE: Why hate Stackpole? |
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The Candace Liao in the Liao housebook is scheming and untrustworthy and basically an unpleasent person, but in the warrior trilogy she suddenly becomes a "good guy" protaginist and can't wait to defect to the Federated Suns.
[ This Message was edited by: Moonlapse Vertigo on 2005-03-05 12:02 ]
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2005 13:02 Post subject: RE: Why hate Stackpole? |
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Quote:
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I don't think that this is Grave Covenant. This is the one with Coventry, whatever it's called.
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I thought that was it. So, I guess the Coventry thing happened in the 2nd part of Malicious Intent? Goodness, that one was packed then. It did resolve the end of the Refusal War, something that I did quite enjoy, myself! Though I liked Vandervahn Chistu better than Vlad Ward. Maybe because of that ubercool name?
But, I'll stick to what I said about Grave Covenant: it is forgettable. Thus, not good. Was that the one with the WiE vs SJ battle, where it was a 3 vs 3 duel to decide the fate of a cluster? Gladiator A vs Daishi A, Fenris D vs Shadowcat A, Masakari C against Turkina B? Why do I remember stuff like that?
Answer: because, by that stage, Stackpole's battles really were just reports, thus the main thing to pick out about them was choice of 'mech!
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2005 13:05 Post subject: RE: Why hate Stackpole? |
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Yes, that's Grave Covenant.
And yes, that's what makes Stackpole's later battle scenes so bad. I read somewhere that Stackpole actually played out all his battle scenes. Perhaps that was a mistake.
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"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close semblance to the first."
- Attributed to General Aleksandr Kerensky
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
Major
Joined: 11-Mar-2004 00:00
Posts: 1744
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2005 13:27 Post subject: RE: Why hate Stackpole? |
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Perhaps, but I play out the battles in the stories I write. Helps me keep the battle going instead of turning into a showboat affair. With one character doing all the work it hardly seems that he/she would even have a unit with them, let alone supporting them. I do fudge here and there if the outcome is not in the interest of the plot. But other than keeping the character alive pretty much the rest is playable, and hence writeable.
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If ignorance is bliss, then why are you so miserable?
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2005 13:53 Post subject: RE: Why hate Stackpole? |
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I'm another of those who started with Stackpole in Star Wars. I borrowed some of his BTech books in High School, but only read bits and pieces.
I cheated and used the sourcebooks for my world-knowledge.
As an author, I like him. As a proponent of Board-Strategy-Tactical-Role Playing games I like him. I like the way he writes his "about the author" sections.
Other than that, I don't know anything else about him.
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"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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jymset
Scavenger
in pursuit of LosTech
Joined: 05-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 956
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 05-Mar-2005 14:12 Post subject: RE: Why hate Stackpole? |
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Playing out a battle ain't bad, per se. Hell, I know that he even played out the arena fights of the Warrior Trilogy.
No, it just became bad when he started doing it for the money only. It became formulaic.
Prince of Havoc was "offensive" because not only does he have a battle report in it, he features the "BIGGEST BAT-REP OF ALL TIME" (TM)!
Seriously, about half that book, what, something like 100 pages, is just a board game transferred onto paper!
_________________
"Rear armour is defeatist!" - unknown Kuritan Mechwarrior
The AC5 is a great gun!
On heat, 3025 style:
A Rifleman knows no heat.
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