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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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 Posted: 05-Sep-2005 16:50 Post subject: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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A while ago I played against a friend who used the Thor B. Normally I'm not worried about Narcs, but after hitting me with a pod, he rolled a hit location to see where the pod struck. He then claimed that any missiles that hit would automatically hit that location. I disagreed, we looked it up in the 3rd edition rulebook, and he was overruled. The Narc beacon was blocked by ECM for the rest of the fight, so no one thought much more about it.
I've never heard of this rule, but it would explain why people would bother to mount a Narc instead of Artemis. In fact, it almost makes Narcs too good. Is this a level 3 rule? Does anyone know where it comes from?
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 05-Sep-2005 18:01 Post subject: RE: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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It's no rule I ever heard about, that's for sure. Ask this guy if he tries the same with TAG and Semi-Guided LRMs... 
Artemis IV better than Narc? I think not! Your whole force can clobber the Narced target with Narc-capable missiles, while the Artemis system only works for the mech that has it.
_________________
A tree fall in the forest, and no one is around, and it hits a mime. Does anyone care?
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Vagabond
Mercenary
Mr. Referee
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 5788
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Sep-2005 01:33 Post subject: RE: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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On 2005-09-05 16:50, Knightrunner wrote:
A while ago I played against a friend who used the Thor B. Normally I'm not worried about Narcs, but after hitting me with a pod, he rolled a hit location to see where the pod struck. He then claimed that any missiles that hit would automatically hit that location. I disagreed, we looked it up in the 3rd edition rulebook, and he was overruled. The Narc beacon was blocked by ECM for the rest of the fight, so no one thought much more about it.
I've never heard of this rule, but it would explain why people would bother to mount a Narc instead of Artemis. In fact, it almost makes Narcs too good. Is this a level 3 rule? Does anyone know where it comes from?
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Never heard of it. I have rolled NARC hit locs just incase said location is destroyed during combat, which in my group ment the pod no longer worked.
As for the effectiveness of NARC, i for a long time pondered its use. Then i finally figured out why NARC is usefull: it allows a Lance or Company or Battalion to cheeply inable its forces to improve the efficiancy of its missile launchers. A NARC pod allows any friendly unit outfitted with NARC ammo to gain the benifit of NARC even if that unit did not fire the NARC. So for a cheep alternative, I could outfit a lance of 3 DV-6Ms Dervishs with a 3050 Raven and gain an effective Artimies IV FCS on all my mechs just by NARCing a target.
_________________
one must work hard to cultivate the mind and body. and one must always cultivate the mind.
//^(^_^)^\\
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 06-Sep-2005 08:03 Post subject: RE: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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I understand that Narc can be useful in large units of missile carriers, but I do stand by what I said about Artemis:
1. Situation specific: He was playing a Clan force (a single star), and because it was an ongoing campaign, the rest of his omnis mounted primarily energy weapons. Both honor and logistics prevented him from making use of the Narc.
2. A Narc launcher has to get much closer to its target than with LRMs and Artemis. For SRMs, Narc fire is still less accurate and, in the Clans, lower-ranged than Streak.
3. Most canon IS Narc carriers are somewhat slow and underarmed, such as the Raven and Kintaro. They also attract a lot of fire, especially the Raven.
4. The Narc bonus doesn\'t kick in until the carrier actually scores a hit on the target. Until he gets in range, nobody gets the bonus. If he misses, nobody gets the bonus. When he runs out of Narc ammo, the bonuses are over until he can reload.
5. ECM renders it useless. Sure, it\'s the same with Artemis, but now the unit is closer than it\'d like to be and had 3-5 tons devoted to dead weight.
That being said, throwing a Kintaro in a company of Archers and Catapults can serve as a quick and effective upgrade of their firepower. It\\\'s not useless, but there are a lot of \\\'ifs\\\' involved. With Artemis, it only depends on the target\\\'s ECM coverage.
Slightly off the subject, do AMS systems target Narc beacons?
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8081
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Sep-2005 08:20 Post subject: RE: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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On 2005-09-06 08:03, Knightrunner wrote:
I understand that Narc can be useful in large units of missile carriers, but I do stand by what I said about Artemis:
1. Situation specific: He was playing a Clan force (a single star), and because it was an ongoing campaign, the rest of his omnis mounted primarily energy weapons. Both honor and logistics prevented him from making use of the Narc.
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In that specific situation. When all the info is taken in totality Narc is better than Artemis.
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2. A Narc launcher has to get much closer to its target than with LRMs and Artemis. For SRMs, Narc fire is still less accurate and, in the Clans, lower-ranged than Streak.
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Again, in totality Narc is better.
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3. Most canon IS Narc carriers are somewhat slow and underarmed, such as the Raven and Kintaro. They also attract a lot of fire, especially the Raven.
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Just because a piece of equipment is used badly in canon designs doesn't change the effectiveness of the equipment.
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4. The Narc bonus doesn\'t kick in until the carrier actually scores a hit on the target. Until he gets in range, nobody gets the bonus. If he misses, nobody gets the bonus. When he runs out of Narc ammo, the bonuses are over until he can reload.
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When all the info is taken in totality Narc is better than Artemis.
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5. ECM renders it useless. Sure, it\'s the same with Artemis, but now the unit is closer than it\'d like to be and had 3-5 tons devoted to dead weight.
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This doesn't make any sense at all...Narc is meant to be used by groups of units, not just in a 1v1 situation.
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That being said, throwing a Kintaro in a company of Archers and Catapults can serve as a quick and effective upgrade of their firepower. It\\\'s not useless, but there are a lot of \\\'ifs\\\' involved. With Artemis, it only depends on the target\\\'s ECM coverage.
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Again, when all the info is taken in totality Narc is better than Artemis.
If you're into dueling Artemis is better...if you're into larger battles Narc and iNarc are better options.
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Slightly off the subject, do AMS systems target Narc beacons?
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Shouldn't be any confusion as Narc and iNarc are listed in the AMS section as things they can shoot down.
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1467
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 06-Sep-2005 09:04 Post subject: RE: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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On 2005-09-06 08:03, Knightrunner wrote:
1. Situation specific: He was playing a Clan force (a single star), and because it was an ongoing campaign, the rest of his omnis mounted primarily energy weapons. Both honor and logistics prevented him from making use of the Narc.
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I´ve never quite understand clan-machines carrying narcs! It is used best if you gang up against the narc`ed enemy! So clanners would use this rarely! But for IS tactics it is just murderous!
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2. A Narc launcher has to get much closer to its target than with LRMs and Artemis. For SRMs, Narc fire is still less accurate and, in the Clans, lower-ranged than Streak.
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But only one mech/vehicle has to come close!
With a high speed they would survive that most of the time!
Narc fire is still less accurate than SRM-fire? Why?
Streak is another thing.
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3. Most canon IS Narc carriers are somewhat slow and underarmed, such as the Raven and Kintaro. They also attract a lot of fire, especially the Raven.
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So mount it on faster designes!
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4. The Narc bonus doesn\'t kick in until the carrier actually scores a hit on the target. Until he gets in range, nobody gets the bonus. If he misses, nobody gets the bonus. When he runs out of Narc ammo, the bonuses are over until he can reload.
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Ok, you have to get in range and hit with the narc but for all the advantages it must have a disadvantage!
If he runs out of ammo all attached narcs still function for the rest of the game!!!
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5. ECM renders it useless. Sure, it\'s the same with Artemis, but now the unit is closer than it\'d like to be and had 3-5 tons devoted to dead weight.
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? If the enemy has an ECM all mechs with Artemis will carry dead weight too, depending on the number of launchers 1 to 4 tons! (and not only the narc carrying unit)!
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Slightly off the subject, do AMS systems target Narc beacons?
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Sure!
_________________
Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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Raven!
Clan Snow Raven
Galaxy Commander
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 1326
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Sep-2005 10:18 Post subject: RE: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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I think I can solve this problem:
Narc system on a single hovercraft. It runs up an down at super high speed pegging enemy units. Once done, it speeds off. Enemy moves forward and then come the reserves:
A company of LRM or SRM carriers.
MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Raven!
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Knightrunner
Clan Snow Raven
Star Commander
Joined: 20-Jul-2005 00:00
Posts: 123
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| Posted: 06-Sep-2005 12:17 Post subject: RE: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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Wow, it looks like I've found a few Narc fans!
I'll try to explain my reasoning in more detail:
1: Situation specific. I think everyone agrees that Narc is, at best, not as useful as Artemis when using strict Clan honor. It’s really an IS weapon, and is only useful when several units gang up on a single target. It can be more useful than Artemis-- in certain situations--but I think most people overestimate it’s effectiveness for all the reasons mentioned below.
2. The range of Narc. The Narc, especially the IS version, forces the firer to get quite close. This is both dangerous, and can mean a few rounds of no beacon support while the Narc unit tries to get close enough for a good shot. Specialized speedy units can help negate that, but they do have to take the time and risk to come close- which is not an issue with Artemis. As for SRM’s, I think Streaks (both IS and Clan) give better bang for the weight than either Artemis or Narc. It depends on the exact design, of course, but I would rather have a Streak system than Narc capable SRMs.
3. Canon designs. This also depends on the situation. If you roll a random mech, or are assigned one by a GM- the canon designs are very important. Some GMs allow modification, others don’t. A custom design can do a lot more, but aren’t always allowed. The targeting of Narc-carrying mechs still applies: if one mech/vehicle approaches your company and starts firing Narc pods, it’s going to get a lot of attention. Sure, a custom mech/vehicle will survive longer, but having 12 frightened mechwarriors target you does not make for a long lifespan.
The Narc is concentrated in a single unit (or a couple units). Not only do people immediatley realize that destroying this mech quickly prevents more Narcs from being used; the Narc unit has conveniently moved into range. It’s a huge target. Spreading the targeting systems out among different mechs also softens the blow of losing that all important Narc unit.
It’s often easier to defend against Narc. The Narc is psychologically more terrifying than Artemis- when the pod hits, you know that YOU are the target of that oncoming missile swarm. So- you immediately maneuver into range of a friendly ECM (if possible). Or move back into long range. With Artemis, mechs can change targets as the opportunity presents- no one feels too intense a need to hug the ECM. Counterpoint- you may get the intimidation factor of a Narc strike to work in your favor by forcing the struck mech to panic. Depends on the situation.
As Chihawk just informed me, Narc can also be shot down by AMS. I have an older rulebook- Narc beacons aren’t specifically mentioned in it, so I appreciate it when people are willing to buy the new books and share the contents with me. 
4. Narc doesn’t kick in until one of the pods hits. A lot of this depends on the speed and gunnery skill of the Narc unit. But still, you can expect to not have the bonus for the first round of firing, at a minimum. It also presents a quandary- should you put your best gunner in the Narc- guaranteeing an early hit, but possibly allowing some large missile carriers to be piloted by worse gunners? Or do you put the best gunners in the missile boats, and hope the Narc carrier gets a hit sooner rather than later? The more experienced the unit, the less this is an issue, but even elite troops miss sometimes.
Yes, the old Narc pods still work when the launcher runs out of ammo- but there can be no new targets. This may or may not matter, depending on the situation, but it’s something to keep in mind.
5. ECM and dead weight. I’ll try to elaborate a bit. An IS Narc weighs at least 4 tons (including ammo) and is rendered useless by ECM. So, of course, is Artemis. I can’t think of any IS mechs that mount 4 sets of Artemis. Obviously, in a duel, Narc is not as efficient as Artemis, and both are completely degraded by ECM. But- a lance of Artemis units can still stand off at long range; a lance of Narc-using mechs has to have a member (preferably the fastest member) right up in the face of the enemy. The Archers, Catapults, and what have you are large and have decent armor. Two wasted tons on an Archer isn’t too big a deal. What does a Narc unit have right next to a hostile, ECM equipped unit? For starters it has 4 tons of useless weaponry. It also is more likely to be a light or medium- neither as sturdy as the Archer, nor as capable of absorbing the loss of weapons tonnage. Overall the total lost tonnage may be more for Artemis units, but with Narc it tends to be concentrated more in units that need all the firepower they can get. Also, unfired Narc pods are explosive and expensive. That's a minor point, to be sure, but it is a Narc drawback.
I do like the idea of a little fast Narc launcher teamed with LRM launchers, especially with indirect fire. I think hidden/dug in infantry with disposable Narc beacons spotting for the LRM carriers should work well, too. I don’t think Narc is useless, nor do I feel it is always inferior to Artemis. It very much depends on the situation, but as I see it, the negatives of Narc generally outweigh the potential extra damage.
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1467
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 06-Sep-2005 16:01 Post subject: RE: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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On 2005-09-06 12:17, Knightrunner wrote:
Situation specific. I think everyone agrees that Narc is, at best, not as useful as Artemis when using strict Clan honor.
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Yes!! Its clearly not a clan weapon and i wonder why they manufacture it and even had improved it!!
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The Narc is psychologically more terrifying than Artemis- when the pod hits, you know that YOU are the target of that oncoming missile swarm. So- you immediately maneuver into range of a friendly ECM (if possible). Or move back into long range. With Artemis, mechs can change targets as the opportunity presents- no one feels too intense a need to hug the ECM. Counterpoint- you may get the intimidation factor of a Narc strike to work in your favor by forcing the struck mech to panic. Depends on the situation.
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I often played games where this occurred:
Narced mechs moved backwards and walked around at long range, not able to combat me effectivly! Or they grouped themselves around an ECM so i was able to better predict their movement or target them with artillery!
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I can’t think of any IS mechs that mount 4 sets of Artemis.
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I know an Avatar config, a Grand Crusader variant and the Project Phoenix Longbow variant with 4 Artemis (all official variants!).
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Obviously, in a duel, Narc is not as efficient as Artemis,
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Absolutely right!!
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For starters it has 4 tons of useless weaponry.
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Only a tiny bit of an advantage:
You can mix narc- and explosiv-pods (that do 4 damage) in a single ton of ammo.
Don´t get me wrong! I´m not against Artemis but I´ve used both systems to good effect!
[ This Message was edited by: Rudel Gurken on 2005-09-06 16:03 ]
_________________
Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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StarRaven
Federated Suns
Leftenant General
Joined: 01-Jun-2004 00:00
Posts: 1138
Location: United States
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| Posted: 06-Sep-2005 16:16 Post subject: RE: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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On 2005-09-06 16:01, Rudel Gurken wrote:
Only a tiny bit of an advantage:
You can mix narc- and explosiv-pods (that do 4 damage) in a single ton of ammo.
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I think that explosives pods must be declared by the ton, just like every other special ammo. You can, however, use a standard beacon pod as a weapon, doing 2 points of damage.
As for Artemis v. Narc. They seem almost equal, to me. Artemis works only for a single unit, but doesn't have as many limitations (having to Narc the enemy). Narc requires more effort to deploy, but gives you stronger results (everyone gets free Artemis).
_________________
"Politics is supposed to be the second oldest profession. I have come to realize that it bears a very close semblance to the first."
- Attributed to General Aleksandr Kerensky
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 06-Sep-2005 16:26 Post subject: RE: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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On 2005-09-06 16:16, StarRaven wrote:
As for Artemis v. Narc. They seem almost equal, to me. Artemis works only for a single unit, but doesn't have as many limitations (having to Narc the enemy). Narc requires more effort to deploy, but gives you stronger results (everyone gets free Artemis).
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The Narc beacon is a great tool for the cost-conscious. You need a mech with the Narc launcher, but the rest of your unit can be any old militia scrapheaps. As long as they have missile launchers you can feed them Narc-capable ammo. You don't have to upgrade any mechs in order to use it! 
_________________
A tree fall in the forest, and no one is around, and it hits a mime. Does anyone care?
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1467
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 07-Sep-2005 03:17 Post subject: RE: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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On 2005-09-06 16:16, StarRaven wrote:
I think that explosives pods must be declared by the ton, just like every other special ammo.
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No! BMR says that you can mix narc- and explosiv pods in one ton of ammo!
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You can, however, use a standard beacon pod as a weapon, doing 2 points of damage.
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This rule is not in the BMR. where do you get this from?
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As for Artemis v. Narc. They seem almost equal, to me. Artemis works only for a single unit, but doesn't have as many limitations (having to Narc the enemy). Narc requires more effort to deploy, but gives you stronger results (everyone gets free Artemis).
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Exact my point of view!
_________________
Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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chihawk
Clan Blood Spirit
Master Bartender
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 8081
Location: United States
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| Posted: 07-Sep-2005 07:50 Post subject: RE: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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On 2005-09-07 03:17, Rudel Gurken wrote:
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On 2005-09-06 16:16, StarRaven wrote:
I think that explosives pods must be declared by the ton, just like every other special ammo.
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No! BMR says that you can mix narc- and explosiv pods in one ton of ammo!
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You can, however, use a standard beacon pod as a weapon, doing 2 points of damage.
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This rule is not in the BMR. where do you get this from?
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As for Artemis v. Narc. They seem almost equal, to me. Artemis works only for a single unit, but doesn't have as many limitations (having to Narc the enemy). Narc requires more effort to deploy, but gives you stronger results (everyone gets free Artemis).
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Exact my point of view!
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Narc can only use "normal" beacons and explosive pods, only iNarc can use the other variant pods.
Pods must be purchased in full ton lots.
Normal Narc beacons can't be used as a weapon...I think someone has misread the effects of a critical to the pods (which do 2 pts of damage per remaining beacon to the carrying mech)
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DarkAdder
Clan Star Adder
Star Commander
Joined: 10-Jan-2004 00:00
Posts: 604
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| Posted: 07-Sep-2005 13:38 Post subject: RE: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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I can use either one, Artemis or Narc. Makes no nevermind to me.
What the posters friend might find interesting is the Follow The Leader warheads for LRMs. Its from the Unbound module for MechWarrior. Essentially, the firer takes a -2 penalty on the roll to see how many missiles hit, but each missile hits the exact same location.
For example, your chart says that 16 LRMs (just pulling a number) hit the target. For location you roll a Left Leg. Rather than rolling locations for three 5-point clusters and one spare, you roll one location and apply all 16 points to that location.
An alternate ordinance for the Narc is the Retro-Streak warhead. The exact rules for that escape me at the moment, but I know that is applies a rather harsh penalty to Streak attacks.
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Meddle not in the affairs of Dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
Posts: 1467
Location: Germany
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| Posted: 13-Sep-2005 04:26 Post subject: RE: Question about Narc missile beacon |
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Narc can only use "normal" beacons and explosive pods, only iNarc can use the other variant pods.
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Did I say something different?
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Pods must be purchased in full ton lots.
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I see: In MaxTech you can mix different Narc Beacon Launcher munitions in one ton. The text "Explosive Pods" was transferred to the BMR without a change (including the sentence regarding an ammo bin explosion:
you have to look what munition-types are in that bin for calculating explosion damage) but the text about mixing munition vanished.
So I didn´t look close enough at the text!
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Normal Narc beacons can't be used as a weapon...I think someone has misread the effects of a critical to the pods (which do 2 pts of damage per remaining beacon to the carrying mech)
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I think so too.
_________________
Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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