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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
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 Posted: 21-Dec-2005 02:15 Post subject: check it out, Russian WWII SMGs in Iraq |
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Ran across a couple of pics of American soldiers in Iraq packing Russian WWII SMGs. Neat.
I've heard more and more how our troops are wanting to toss their M16s for M14s, .45s and even WWII weapons. First I've seen they were losing the M16s for WWII russian weapons though.
http://fow.flamesofwar.com/viewtopic.php?t=28117&highlight=
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
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Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 21-Dec-2005 06:18 Post subject: RE: check it out, Russian WWII SMGs in Iraq |
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Does this mean Musharraf has been selling weapons to the Iraqi? Should we invade Pakistan next? 
Seriously: The 71-round drum (yes, 71) may sound good, but the Soviets started replacing them with 35-round box magazines in 1942. The drum was too unreliable and also slow to refill.
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
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Joined: 24-Jul-2003 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 21-Dec-2005 18:35 Post subject: RE: check it out, Russian WWII SMGs in Iraq |
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On 2005-12-21 06:18, Nightmare wrote:
Does this mean Musharraf has been selling weapons to the Iraqi? Should we invade Pakistan next?
Seriously: The 71-round drum (yes, 71) may sound good, but the Soviets started replacing them with 35-round box magazines in 1942. The drum was too unreliable and also slow to refill.
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Actualy the more likely explenation is these are from older Iraqi weapon stocks during the first Gulf War Iraq fielded a Handfull of WW II vintage German Tiger II Tanks as well as a lot of WW II vintage Soviet T-34/85s Many old soviet SMGs and other arms were spread all over the planet during to cold war. You will find numbers of them in Africa as well as with the handfull of communist rebles in South America. Since they are no longer getting supplies from the former communist block they have to make do with what they have plus a lot of these old weapons have been aquired by private arms dealers from stocks in cash strapped third world nations trying to finance upgrades to their militaries. (many terrorist groups get their weapons that way.)
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Delta
Lyran Alliance
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Joined: 11-Dec-2004 00:00
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2005 11:32 Post subject: RE: check it out, Russian WWII SMGs in Iraq |
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Heh. The PPsh is a pretty cool looking gun.
Stuff like this makes me wonder...
Why don't we upgrade the 5.56Ns to proportionally bigger 9mm rounds? I mean, they'd be huge, but not much would stop 'em...and '9mm assault rifle' just sounds cool. Plus it beats the AK-47s 7.62mm round. Add more reliablity, jack up the price seriously, and you have an asskickin' rifle.
On another note, do any of you guys who are in the millitary know what exactly what was wrong with the XM-8? I've been trying to figure it out why they canceled it in September...its a damn cool looking gun too... 
Now, take a SAW and adapt it to fire those 5.56s turned 9mm I want....now we're talking... 
OK, Im not in the millitary (too young...) but, are any of my ideas possible?
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2005 14:04 Post subject: RE: check it out, Russian WWII SMGs in Iraq |
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On 2005-12-22 11:32, Delta wrote:
Why don't we upgrade the 5.56Ns to proportionally bigger 9mm rounds? I mean, they'd be huge, but not much would stop 'em...and '9mm assault rifle' just sounds cool.
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The problem is money, as usual. There's a huge number of old model assault rifles that work well enough, and stockpiles of ammo. Going for a new type would be too expensive. Special forces get to play with new stuff, though. The Russians have 9mm assault rifles in limited production.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as09-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as10-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as64-e.htm
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as65-e.htm
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WhizzbangThePowerSquig
Royal Black Watch Regiment
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Joined: 21-Mar-2005 00:00
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2005 20:42 Post subject: RE: check it out, Russian WWII SMGs in Iraq |
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Hmmm...
I like the Groza. Bullpup layout makes it compact and easily handled, and it looks kinda mean. The Vikhr looks like a moded MP5, and the 9A-91 looks like a machine pistol. The Val looks like it's held together by duct tape.
If the US soldiers are so upset with the M16's performance in Iraq, couldn't the military higher-ups crack the old Thompsons out of storage? I'm sure they got a shitload sitting around from WW2, and .45 rounds can't be that hard to come by.
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Gunslinger Patch
Royal Black Watch Regiment
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| Posted: 22-Dec-2005 22:35 Post subject: RE: check it out, Russian WWII SMGs in Iraq |
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I'm not sure the US has so many older weapons in stock, we gave them away all over the place over the years.
That and we didn't hang onto so much stuff like the Soviets did. They've still got regiments of T-34s, updated guns and kept in running condition, sitting around in warehouses in case the chinese invade. They still have WWII arty sitting around in storage in case they need it again.
Their military were real packrats with all kinds of equipment. That's why it is now a lot easier to obtain a WWII russian airplane to restore and fly then an Allied one. They still have those little Ilushyen biplanes that were used to strafe German campfires at night in storage and people are now buying them and flying them.
While the US on the other hand, scrapped most of its WWII aircraft in short order once the war was over. I wouldn't be surprised if they melted down a bunch of infantry weapons too.
Besides, WWII Thompsons had 20 round magazines. Better to hope that they have a whole bunch of those greaseguns still around, with 30 round magazines. I think they still used those for tank crewmen to carry as late as the Gulf War.
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Motown Scrapper
Clan Ice Hellions
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| Posted: 23-Dec-2005 01:03 Post subject: RE: check it out, Russian WWII SMGs in Iraq |
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The American Rifleman just had an artical about the grease gun in a recent issue. It is still in limited service proving to be much superiour to the costlier Thompson. incedently the Thompson also had a 30 round magazine avalable. The M3 was the best of the three SMG types the US used during WW II (The Reising being the third.) and generaly out performed both the British and German guns.
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WhizzbangThePowerSquig
Royal Black Watch Regiment
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Location: Canada
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| Posted: 26-Dec-2005 19:54 Post subject: RE: check it out, Russian WWII SMGs in Iraq |
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Get the old mobster-style drum mags.
I could see it now: HUMVEE pulls up, side doors open, two US infantry step out and hose down a building. Kinda like the 30s, only with sand;)
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Slythis
Federated Suns
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Joined: 09-Aug-2002 00:00
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| Posted: 28-Dec-2005 05:59 Post subject: RE: check it out, Russian WWII SMGs in Iraq |
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Quote:
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On 2005-12-26 19:54, WhizzbangThePowerSquig wrote:
Get the old mobster-style drum mags.
I could see it now: HUMVEE pulls up, side doors open, two US infantry step out and hose down a building. Kinda like the 30s, only with sand;)
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My Grandfather served in the Pacific theatre and he said that the Thomspon was useless, too high a caliber for it's rate of fire, recoil was so bad that if the first shot didn't hit nothing would.
The grease gun was good, and it was cheap, but good luck convincing the brass that an old gun is still effective.
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 31-Dec-2005 17:50 Post subject: RE: check it out, Russian WWII SMGs in Iraq |
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By my last check (maybe a year or so out of date) the military has never particularly liked the 9mm round. As a pistol round its too small (not that it stopped them cycling out the M1911A2), and as a rifle round it's too big. The military wants to keep full kit under 80lbs, preferably under 60lbs. As armor gets lighter, weapons will get heavier again, but for the moment, moist new small arms, like the OICW, are tied to the advent of the lighter armor they're experimenting with in SuperSoldier.
You see the heavier weapons with tank crews because tankers don't wear armor, and if they get knocked out of their vehicles, they want to compensate with a big round that can knock a man down, even if it doesn't get through his armor.
The M-16A2 is the best small arm in the world when all factors are considered. Most of the russians guns above are too heavy, too expensive, too innacurate, to short ranged, too long ranged, or something else.
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Delta
Lyran Alliance
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| Posted: 03-Jan-2006 22:46 Post subject: RE: check it out, Russian WWII SMGs in Iraq |
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I COMMAND some genius to invent really good recoil compensation
...
...
WHAT?!?
(Seriously)
Its kinda see it that cost shouldn't really be an issue when you're making weapons. An extra 250-750 bucks an assault rifle for far better firepower or reliablity may seem steep but its probally worth it.
[ This Message was edited by: Delta on 2006-01-03 22:53 ]
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
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| Posted: 04-Jan-2006 02:03 Post subject: RE: check it out, Russian WWII SMGs in Iraq |
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On 2006-01-03 22:46, Delta wrote:
An extra 250-750 bucks an assault rifle for far better firepower or reliablity may seem steep but its probally worth it.
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Armies can't go around arming every last man with the newest stuff. Not even the army of such a rich nation as the US. Money does add up when you consider how many guns it's actually about. It's not just the millions of new weapons we're talking about here but all the old ones that would suddenly be collecting dust in the armories.
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
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| Posted: 05-Jan-2006 00:02 Post subject: RE: check it out, Russian WWII SMGs in Iraq |
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Keep in mind, it's something of a fixed budget. That $250 is coming from somewhere. That's the difference in putting the balistic shield in the kevlar armor, or the difference between armored humvees and non-armored humvees.
Course, we could take it out of Social...
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