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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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 Posted: 22-Jun-2006 10:42 Post subject: Making salvage feel like...well, salvage... |
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As a GM, one of the biggest challenges I faced in running battletech games was regulating salvage. Throwing the big bruisers at the PCs was always a risk, because there was always the chance that the PCs would get lucky and take the 'mech with relatively little damage. Over the course of a campaign, this could easily result in what had been a well-balanced company turning into a brigade of assault 'mechs. Even if the PCs were unable to salvage any complete 'mechs, they were usually able to strip enough useful gear off the 'mechs they killed to "pimp my ride" so to speak.
Learning from this mistake, I took steps to mitigate the salvage monty-haul. First, I made PCs choose between salvage rights and monetary compensation in contract negotiation. (this led to some interesting role playing situations when the PCs tried to cheat their employer by under-reporting what they had actually taken).
Second, I made salvaged parts more difficult to use. You want to use the armor points you salvaged from that Stinger arm to patch up your Orion. Sorry, but that just doesn't make much sense. That's about the same as using the steel plate from an old Sherman to patch up an Abrams. You can try it, but at a +4 tech roll penalty. Want to use that Donal PPC you stripped from a Warhammer to replace the burned out Lords Light PPC on your Panther. Sorry, the power couplings are not compatable. +2 penalty, and I wouldn't try running that PPC hot if I were you, or those jury-rigged couplings you fabricated in your machine shop just might give out at a very inconvenient time.
Third, no major overhauls in the bay of your Dropship. There simply isn't the space. No moving parts from your cargo bay to your 'mechs bays either. The internal corridors are big enough for humans, not a battlemech cockpit, and you sure as hell don't have the equipment to do it via EVA.
Fourth, damaged battlemechs are big and heavy, and will slow you down when you're trying to make your escape after a raid. Make your PCs bring salvage trucks...which make big juicy targets to the VTOLs and hovercraft which are harrassing them while they're trying to pull back to their dropship. You may really want that battlemaster, but you're going to have to drive that salvage truck through enemy territory by yourself, because your techs sure as hell are not ready to sacrifice themselves just so you can have an assault 'mech. Dragging it along with your Shadow Hawk really isn't an option either, unless you WANT to burn out your hip actuators.
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"The enemy's gate is down."
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 22-Jun-2006 13:03 Post subject: RE: Making salvage feel like...well, salvage... |
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My approach was always not to throw the bruisers at them until late in the game, and even then, a damaged battlemaster is worth more to the enemy than no battlemaster, so if a battle ever went quite that bad, they would retreat.
But these suggestions look pretty good. I might use some of them...
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 22-Jun-2006 18:01 Post subject: RE: Making salvage feel like...well, salvage... |
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On 2006-06-22 10:42, mud wrote:
First, I made PCs choose between salvage rights and monetary compensation in contract negotiation. (this led to some interesting role playing situations when the PCs tried to cheat their employer by under-reporting what they had actually taken).
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That's the way it's always been, IIRC. Having to pressure the employer to let you keep your salvage, or to simply take the "fair value" in money.
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Second, I made salvaged parts more difficult to use. You want to use the armor points you salvaged from that Stinger arm to patch up your Orion. Sorry, but that just doesn't make much sense. That's about the same as using the steel plate from an old Sherman to patch up an Abrams. You can try it, but at a +4 tech roll penalty. Want to use that Donal PPC you stripped from a Warhammer to replace the burned out Lords Light PPC on your Panther. Sorry, the power couplings are not compatable. +2 penalty, and I wouldn't try running that PPC hot if I were you, or those jury-rigged couplings you fabricated in your machine shop just might give out at a very inconvenient time.
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Also remember weapon sizes. The Donal off a Warhammer is a helluva lot bigger than the Lord's Light off of a Panther.
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Third, no major overhauls in the bay of your Dropship. There simply isn't the space. No moving parts from your cargo bay to your 'mechs bays either. The internal corridors are big enough for humans, not a battlemech cockpit, and you sure as hell don't have the equipment to do it via EVA.
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It would make sense to me to be able to move equipment between cargo and 'mech bays. Otherwise, where would you store the mountains of actuators, circuit boards, and armor slabs? The floor of the 'mech hanger?
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Fourth, damaged battlemechs are big and heavy, and will slow you down when you're trying to make your escape after a raid. Make your PCs bring salvage trucks...which make big juicy targets to the VTOLs and hovercraft which are harrassing them while they're trying to pull back to their dropship. You may really want that battlemaster, but you're going to have to drive that salvage truck through enemy territory by yourself, because your techs sure as hell are not ready to sacrifice themselves just so you can have an assault 'mech. Dragging it along with your Shadow Hawk really isn't an option either, unless you WANT to burn out your hip actuators.
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That's why God invented Hazard Pay. Those salvage techs knew what they signed on for. 
[ This Message was edited by: Warhammer: 3025 on 2006-06-22 18:01 ]
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 23-Jun-2006 07:55 Post subject: RE: Making salvage feel like...well, salvage... |
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Some good thoughts there. Salvage shouldn't be easy to obtain, but I don't think that mech parts cannot be moved around the ship. Don't forget that even with narrow corridors you may unload the cargo and bring it back through mech bay doors...
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 23-Jun-2006 10:09 Post subject: RE: Making salvage feel like...well, salvage... |
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You don't have the heavy craines in a dropship that you need to move that stuff around in your 'mech bay. The 'mechs in the bay are packed in tight. If you want to do serious repair work on your 'mech, you need to land at a friendly base and find a hanger big enough to accomodate all of the heavy equipment you'll need. Ships are not designed for this; dropships are combat vessals, with every square inch packed tight.
Think of the situation on aircraft carriers...they don't do major overhauls of the planes in the hanger bay. During WWII, if a plane was seriously damaged, they just dumped it overboard.
This does of course raise the possibility of a new type of dropship dedicated to being a mobile repair/refit facility. An overlord might be able to accomodate 4-6 'mech repair bays if everything else were stripped out of the inside.
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Warhammer: 3025
Freelance
Captain, AFFC (Ret.)
Joined: 29-Jan-2005 00:00
Posts: 1856
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| Posted: 23-Jun-2006 12:59 Post subject: RE: Making salvage feel like...well, salvage... |
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WWII, maybe. Now...not so much. Near the rear of the hanger deck on the Nimitz carrier is a fully-equipped repair bay. They can do everything from fixing/replacing avionics to dropping and overhauling a jet engine.
Also, these are battle-ready machines of war we're talking about, not crates. Weapons need to be serviced, armor needs to be patched/painted, and actuators need to be replaced. All of that requires men and materiel to be able to move about inside the hanger (not to mention that a "hot" insertion/evac requires speed, something that cannot be had if everything is packed in).
[ This Message was edited by: Warhammer: 3025 on 2006-06-23 13:00 ]
_________________
Evil is like a bowl of oranges. Only one, instead, is an orange of DOOM. That orange has a fate to rule over the other oranges with an iron fist. That orange is me.
Because sometimes, there are many guards in the castle.
Ya Rl'yeh!
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Nightmare
Lyran Alliance
Kommandant-General
Joined: 03-May-2002 00:00
Posts: 2214
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| Posted: 23-Jun-2006 13:21 Post subject: RE: Making salvage feel like...well, salvage... |
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Pick up your TRO's and read up on the dropships in use. Some of them are mentioned as having enough space for extensive repairs. 
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 23-Jun-2006 13:54 Post subject: RE: Making salvage feel like...well, salvage... |
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Young Mr. Mud, wish you could have joined me and see what 20 years of running a game teaches you. Glad to see you recognize it and are trying to adjust and adapt. Always tell them upfront of the changes and be fair and balanced.
1) You did the right thing about salvage and compensation. For some reason all players think they should always get salvage. There are interesting spins on this. Players get every 3rd Mech. Players get nothing until it is all over but choose the first 3 Mechs in the pile. Bounty, players get 100K for a usable light Mech, 250K for a medium, etc. Players get old tech only, nothing new tech, or vice versa. These types of negotiations, as you pointed out, lead to a lot of fun.
2) Armor- You get 50% of what ever is left on that location. Means if the Mech in question as 10 points on the arm, the players get 5 usable points. This covers waste of cutting it off and then bending and fitting to the other mech.
Actuators and limbs- must be from the same weight class or no way.
Weapons- I learned not to fight direct replacements. You can make a harder Tech roll if it is not a direct replacement, your call.
3) No a dropship is a mobile repair bay. But I classified repairs into 4 categories. I can send you the big breakdown later. But it was Open, Field, Station, and Permanent. The Dropship I have rated as a Station. Means all repairs except replacing engines, gyros, and left or right torsos can be done. But repairing an engine is harder at a Station then at a Permanent facility. You can do it but not optimal to get it done.
4) I do not remember the rules really covering dragging Mechs. My rules were, 2 Mechs with one function hand each. Combined both Mechs must weight as much as the dragged Mech. Then they move 1/2, if they are 2X in tonnage then they move half. But in raids they should really not be worried about salvage. Next time they do, punish them badly.
5) The brigade of assault Mechs. Let them have it. Then put them on a defensive campaign where they have to defend many targets, and then attack with quick light and medium Mechs. Not much board play as they loose the campaign with hardly a shot fired since they could not be in the right locations to defend the targets and enemy goes to town. I also change the maintenance rules that big Mechs take more time and money to maintain. Or put them on a raid where they can not get to the target in time i.e., they have left the area.
6) Redesigning a Mech I am a bastard about. If it can not just you can not make it jump. I force them to have an engineering skill, spend loads of cash on design alone, and then cost of actually doing it. This allows tweaks and mods but prevents the Clint from becoming a sort of Whitworth.
Contact me if you need to tap into my experience. I am about to start a new campaign and adding some players here in a couple weeks. Looking forward to see how they act and react.
AWAD- You can find players; I found 5, by using the Commando site and little work, with in 3 days
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SaberDance
Federated Suns
Colonel
Joined: 07-May-2004 00:00
Posts: 837
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| Posted: 23-Jun-2006 20:44 Post subject: RE: Making salvage feel like...well, salvage... |
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Well, if we're talking about all we do...
When I was young and playing, I always got annoyed when my brother/GM stopped me from getting something.
Then I started GMing and discovered why giving in was a bad idea.
Two words: Slash Loot.
By which my doctor/PC meant "I slash open his side and remove his kidneys. What do you think I can get on the black market?"
So I've gotten better on my salvage rules.
The tech has to make a tech roll for each part he tries to salvage. Remaining salvage has to be in good condition (no damage) except for armor.
Internal structure has to be lifted in complete parts.
And it takes time, because they strip it in the field.
And they never had the equipment to haul the heavies they killed (which were rare) back.
And, when mechs fall over, you can fake all kinds of damage. Ammo went off and destroyed the left side.
Now, when the players get a little further along, I'll let them get their hands on bigger mechs.
_________________
"Politics is the Art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, misdiagnosing the problem, and applying the wrong solution."
-Groucho Marx
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mud
Draconis Combine
Tai-sho
Joined: 23-Jul-2002 00:00
Posts: 1618
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| Posted: 24-Jun-2006 14:16 Post subject: RE: Making salvage feel like...well, salvage... |
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Another trick I used for awhile (in the "faking it" category) was ruling that any 'mech that was destroyed due to center torso destruction was consumed by flames, and rendered totally unsalvagable for any other purpose than to be melted down for scrap metal. It was a bit clumsy, but I think it was reasonable, and it helped to stem the tide. I realized I needed to implement this because I was planning to send my hapless PCs against the clans, and I wanted to avert a clantech jackpot.
_________________
"The enemy's gate is down."
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