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| Should the UACs and ACs share the same range profile? |
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| no |
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| Total Votes : 7 |
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
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 Posted: 25-Sep-2007 02:13 Post subject: Technical innovations and the range of standard ACs |
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I just wonder why Inner Sphere never improved the technology of standard AC. What do you think is the reason for Ultra ACs to have longer range? It's understandable with LB guns, but why UAC? You say that it is because of the Grey Death Memory Core, or because of clan technologies reverse engineered? But why the knowledge wasn't applied to standard AC as well?
I think that IS UACs and standard ACs should share the same range profile.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
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| Posted: 25-Sep-2007 05:53 Post subject: |
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Depends on how you look at things. The UAC and LBX weapon systems could be seen as improvements over and on the standard ACs. Or they could be seen as totally new weapon systems.
Now if you went the route of better standard ACs, what would you improve first?
Weight? Range? Ammo? Size? Or the removal of their heat?
Since we don't want fully realism in the game, really the AC2 should have the AC20s range and vise versa, then improving the range would be something that takes away from the tactical table top game.
Weight changes, okay this could happen, they could get lighter, but that then leaves the question of do we need the LAC series of ACs if the standards are improved upon. Size, aka crits, would fall into this setting as well. If you make it smaller crit wise, then you have one thing that will help keep them around longer.
Ammo, okay so you can make different shell types ala the missiles warheads for the ACs, everything from armor piercing to self aiming rounds, this does add new levels of use to the standard weapons, but if combined with improvements above removes the need for UACs and LACs. Then the push should also be to see similar ammos made aviable for the LBX and RAC weapon systems.
Could you post a set of examples of your take on what improvements could done?
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Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
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Seraph
Blighted Sun Battalion
2nd Company
"Seraph's Slaughter"
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| Posted: 25-Sep-2007 18:44 Post subject: |
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I do not think the ranges of standard AC's should be moved up to match the higher tech AC's. If you did it would be a universe wide update on the AC. Which would require the big Houses to share the technology with the periphery states who still produce level 1 designs. Also it would mean you would have to have a seperate designation for pre and post updated AC's. An older AC is not going to suddenly shoot longer just because the ones coming off the assembly lines do.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
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Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 26-Sep-2007 02:58 Post subject: |
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I treat the LB guns as a separate weapon system since these were always said to incorporate different materials in their construction, while the UACs had been only equipped with different ammo feeding mechanism that allowed higher rate of fire. Thats why I think the standard ACs may share the range with the UACs.
The question of AC range and damage may want it's own topic and it was already discussed before, but I don't mind if it's dug out again. The solution may be in the fact that canon considers all types of AC to be rapid fire weapons, so the heavier ACs may fire longer burst and thus need heavier ammo feeder, cooling circuits, etc. but they may also be less accurate due to vibrations and some other stuff (pure speculation of course) and through this the shorter range may be explained. In Battletech we deal with effective range, don't we? The fact that the weapon can reach further doesn't mean that you'll hit a broadside of a DropShip with it. Not only that clan weapon systems are superior through materials they use, but I think that part of the range advantage they enjoy may be the result of higher standard of their basic targeting system (I'm referring to the fluff of Clint IIC, which states that Sloane 220 Lockover, considered superior in IS, is regarded as slightly obsolete).
To answer the second question I never intended to ask how it would be done game-wise, I only wondered whether something wouldn't happen. And to have the same range it could also mean to have shorter range (If I'm working with AC and different ammo feeder only). I just pondered what makes the IS UAC so special that it received increased range over standard AC and if there is something why it wasn't applied to standard guns as well. I understand the fact that for rules it's easier to have it this way and we don't need another gun, but why wouldn't the great houses apply a technology to the most common weapons in their arsenal if they already had the technology developed and mass produced?
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
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| Posted: 26-Sep-2007 05:34 Post subject: |
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| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | I treat the LB guns as a separate weapon system since these were always said to incorporate different materials in their construction, while the UACs had been only equipped with different ammo feeding mechanism that allowed higher rate of fire. Thats why I think the standard ACs may share the range with the UACs.
The question of AC range and damage may want it's own topic and it was already discussed before, but I don't mind if it's dug out again. The solution may be in the fact that canon considers all types of AC to be rapid fire weapons, so the heavier ACs may fire longer burst and thus need heavier ammo feeder, cooling circuits, etc. but they may also be less accurate due to vibrations and some other stuff (pure speculation of course) and through this the shorter range may be explained. In Battletech we deal with effective range, don't we? The fact that the weapon can reach further doesn't mean that you'll hit a broadside of a DropShip with it. Not only that clan weapon systems are superior through materials they use, but I think that part of the range advantage they enjoy may be the result of higher standard of their basic targeting system (I'm referring to the fluff of Clint IIC, which states that Sloane 220 Lockover, considered superior in IS, is regarded as slightly obsolete).
To answer the second question I never intended to ask how it would be done game-wise, I only wondered whether something wouldn't happen. And to have the same range it could also mean to have shorter range (If I'm working with AC and different ammo feeder only). I just pondered what makes the IS UAC so special that it received increased range over standard AC and if there is something why it wasn't applied to standard guns as well. I understand the fact that for rules it's easier to have it this way and we don't need another gun, but why wouldn't the great houses apply a technology to the most common weapons in their arsenal if they already had the technology developed and mass produced? |
If we were using effective range then the lasers would have the same range as the LRMs...and MGs would have longer ranges as well.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
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| Posted: 26-Sep-2007 09:53 Post subject: |
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Depends on what served as the base for these weapons. Perhaps these would have the range but lose the ability to do damage with range...
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Karagin
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| Posted: 26-Sep-2007 12:12 Post subject: |
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| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | | Depends on what served as the base for these weapons. Perhaps these would have the range but lose the ability to do damage with range... |
There is effective range and then the actual range, you can only pick one or the other, and it does seem as if BT went with one, but modified it to fit what the game was and is, a table top game with limited ranges to keep things simple and easy.
Now I have seen some folks use the ranges found in the Solaris IV box set game rules for standard BT ranges and it was an interesting lance on lance fight, but still a long fight.
Over range weapons lose accuracy, they will still do damage, so maybe something is needed to show that while hitting at range 10 plus is do able, you need to add in the penalty that tells you that you aren't going to be hitting as much as you want or something like that.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
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| Posted: 26-Sep-2007 12:20 Post subject: |
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With energy weapons there may be interactions with atmosphere...
For MGs I'm not sure. Do they keep armor piercing power over the range?
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Vagabond
Mercenary
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| Posted: 26-Sep-2007 22:30 Post subject: |
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| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | | I just pondered what makes the IS UAC so special that it received increased range over standard AC and if there is something why it wasn't applied to standard guns as well. |
maybe the need for a heavier more robust feed/fire mechanism allows for a higher propellant ratio (IE: UACs fire magnum rounds.) Just an idea.
However, this does bring to mind a question i have long held when it comes to BT.... why is there so few alterations in tech over time?
SLDF Tech is less superior vs same and more of superior via new. A SLDF AC/10 is as heavy, as hot, and as accurate as a Davion AC/10. LRMs still have the same minimum. Lasers still operate the same.
Now, I understand that the IS lost tech or stagnated, but common they never bothered to try and improve something so basic as a cannon?
And to me this is one of few and yet strongest failures of the BT system. The system is just to hard coded with 2d6, hexes, and full tonnage to allow evolution and devolution of the universe beyond what they have done. How many new weapons can be made before your reinventing the wheel?
With ACs, UACs, and Rotary ACs what more can you do with the present system? And it might seem almost like i'm arguing against the very subject i'm pushing (and i may be lol) but the present system just doesn't feel like it can grow much more.
my 2 c-bills. (more like 20)
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
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| Posted: 27-Sep-2007 02:40 Post subject: |
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To general technology upgrade I think that we can say that everything improved. The speed, range, accuracy, armor... and negated itself out through this 
This question will probably remain unsolved.
Your explanation still keeps the question: why wasn't standard AC reinforced as well? I doubt that the pilots would want to keep the old range profile, or that someone wouldn't create at least field mod ...
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
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| Posted: 27-Sep-2007 13:32 Post subject: |
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The Problem is that BT weapons didn't evolve at all through the 600+ years!
Ok, there were new classes of ACs, lasers, PPCs but the in the same class (of standard AC, LB-X AC, standard laser, pulse lasers and so on) there is exactly zero developement!
The AC/5 of 2499 is the same as of 2770 or 3060!
The UAC/5 of 2651 is the same as the UAC/5 of "today"!
The advantage of this is that you can use a 2569 model in 3050 with no loss in performance.
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Vagabond
Mercenary
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 27-Sep-2007 13:51 Post subject: |
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| Sleeping Dragon wrote: | | Your explanation still keeps the question: why wasn't standard AC reinforced as well? I doubt that the pilots would want to keep the old range profile, or that someone wouldn't create at least field mod ... |
New Item: Magnum Breach
weight: 0.5 ton
crit: 1
Use: Allows standard Autocannons to be modified to allow high pressure loads at the breach without damaging the firing mechanism. May use Magnum Rounds.
Limit: Standard ACs only.
New Ammo: Magnum Rounds
Weight: same as autocannon.
Crit: same as autocannon.
Shots per Ton: same as autocannon.
Effect: modify the range of the AC as follows-
AC/2 (5)9/18/27
AC/5 (4)7/14/21
AC/10 (1)6/12/18
AC/20 4/8/12
Back Draw: If fired from an AC without a Magnum Breach, roll 2d6 on 7+ the AC suffers a critical hit represent repairable damage to the firing assembly from the excessive pressures.
Limit: Standard ACs only.
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: 27-Sep-2007 14:22 Post subject: |
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Bravo, Vagabond!! Great idea!  
Like it!
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Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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AWAD
Draconis Combine
Chu-sa
Joined: 06-Feb-2002 00:00
Posts: 766
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| Posted: 09-Oct-2007 13:26 Post subject: |
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| Karagin wrote: | Depends on how you look at things. The UAC and LBX weapon systems could be seen as improvements over and on the standard ACs. Or they could be seen as totally new weapon systems.
Could you post a set of examples of your take on what improvements could done? |
A good post Karagin.
For me the UAC and LB are completely new weapon systems just based on the AC. How a smooth bore has a longer range than a standard is one of those leaps of FASA faith in technology.
I have been using LAC as level 1 technology for ages, even before the books. Other than AC/20, did anyone really design with them? Spare me the every so often they have a roll BS.
To save the standard AC they came up with special ammuntion. The coolness and usefulness of these run the spectrum.
Ideas that are for the autocannon only, not ammo.
Endo Steel could be used in making the cannon. So increase the number of crrits, reduce the weight, range remains the same.
Longer range could be obtained by muzzle and barrel design. The problem is minmum ranges would go up.
Double heat sinks and other technology allow better disapation of heat. So add one critical and cut the heat in half. (Does nothing for AC2/5)
AWAD- Even the RAC has not saved the AC
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
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| Posted: 09-Oct-2007 15:21 Post subject: |
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| AWAD wrote: | ...
I have been using LAC as level 1 technology for ages, even before the books.
... |
When the LACs came up (Tactical Handbook??) we used it as equipment available since even before the old StarLeague. Same with RLs.
Both are quite nice to design tanks with WW II feeling!
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