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PlaywithLAMs
Capellan Confederation
Si-ben-bing
Joined: 08-Mar-2010 14:01
Posts: 98
Location: United States
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 Posted: 10-Mar-2010 14:06 Post subject: House rule for double barreled ACs & Gauss rifles & MGs |
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| If a unit/structure has the space and tonnage available, then it can mount double barreled ACs, double barreled Gauss rifles, and/or double barreled MGs. If such weapons are double barreled, then they must be identical and are considered following the linking rules from Tactical Operations with the following exceptions: both of their shots hit the same location and each double barreled weapon pair gains a -1 to-hit modifier to account for improved firing (each shot's torque cancels each other's out and so they fly on better trajectories).
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Wanallo
Federated Suns
Leftenant Colonel
Joined: 02-Jan-2004 00:00
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Location: United Kingdom
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| Posted: 12-Mar-2010 17:07 Post subject: House rule for double barreled ACs & Gauss rifles & MGs |
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Interesting idea, but it seems a little unfair in my opinion. The real rule breaker is the -1 to hit modifier. As you can imagine the weapons where this will be a real threat would be gauss rifles and large AC's. Of course the only mechs that can mount weapons like these are heavies and assaults. So what you propose would completely unbalance these weapons against lighter opponents.
For example, a light mechs only defence against assaults is their speed, a -1 as well as both weapons hitting the same location would definately kill any light mech and would have a good chance of destroying a medium mech. Add to that mix the fact that players often have better pilots in larger mechs. As well as the possibility of a targeting computer. A pilot with 3 base gunnery would essentially have a 0 gunnery skill.
The system could be used on lighter weapons, but I feel it is still unbalancing because the chances of lighter mechs mounting any double barreled weapon over 2 light ac5's/2's is unlikely. Doubl barrelled mg's are redundant because of machine gun arrays.
edit: had to edit my argument, initially misread the post! 
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
Major
Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: 13-Mar-2010 02:17 Post subject: House rule for double barreled ACs & Gauss rifles & MGs |
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I think it's unfair too.
There is no disadvantage in this arrangement (besides the fact that the unit has to be big enough to mount two weapons of a kind in the same location) combined with the advantages of -1 to hit, both shots hitting (instead of rolling dice like UAC's), and both shots hitting the same location.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
Posts: 4820
Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 14-Mar-2010 06:43 Post subject: House rule for double barreled ACs & Gauss rifles & MGs |
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Atually the the main thing about the double barrel ACs is that the energy and backward movement created by firing of the first barrel is used to reload and move the second barrel to firing position and the other way around, taking away some parts needed to do tat with single barrel. This should allow the double barrel gun to be somewhat lighter than two separate guns. Interaction of two shots in flight is actually dangerous and counterproductive.
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Karagin
Imperial Karagin Army
Imperial General
Joined: 04-Feb-2002 00:00
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 14-Mar-2010 12:30 Post subject: House rule for double barreled ACs & Gauss rifles & MGs |
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To me it seems to have more moving parts, which makes it likely to jam or misfire more often then not...I have double barreled ACs, actually what the group I gamed with in Michigan came up with was more akin to the mitrailleuse that the French had and did not use really well in their war with Prussia in 1870.
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Karagin
Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
Joined: 06-Apr-2005 00:00
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Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 14-Mar-2010 15:17 Post subject: House rule for double barreled ACs & Gauss rifles & MGs |
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Well, actually the concept is in use, Russians have been using the double barelled 30 mm guns on their planes for quite some time and these guns are said to be mechanically simpler than gatling guns, although less durable. I think this could be the actual construction of the ultra AC.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GSh-23L
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PlaywithLAMs
Capellan Confederation
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 16-Mar-2010 10:53 Post subject: House rule for double barreled ACs & Gauss rifles & MGs |
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If you're concerned about the -1 to-hit modifier, then have the BV of both weapons that use that modifier modified (increase weapons' & ammo's BV by 10%).
| wrote: | | I think this could be the actual construction of the ultra AC. |
Um, no. An Ultra AC is an autocannon that has its tonnage increased a little bit to make its shots (two bursts) shoot more quickly. My rules simply have two identical guns shoot next to each other to have each other's shots' torques cancel each other. Also, as two weapons are linked together, they can't each shoot at different targets.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
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Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 16-Mar-2010 13:29 Post subject: Re: House rule for double barreled ACs & Gauss rifles & MGs |
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| PlaywithLAMs wrote: | If you're concerned about the -1 to-hit modifier, then have the BV of both weapons that use that modifier modified (increase weapons' & ammo's BV by 10%).
| wrote: | | I think this could be the actual construction of the ultra AC. |
Um, no. An Ultra AC is an autocannon that has its tonnage increased a little bit to make its shots (two bursts) shoot more quickly. My rules simply have two identical guns shoot next to each other to have each other's shots' torques cancel each other. Also, as two weapons are linked together, they can't each shoot at different targets. |
You are tearing my words out of the context. I was talking about the two barrel ACs like those to which the link in my post referred. The thing with self cancelling torques won't work for me in any meaningful way. What torque are you trying to cancel by the way? I still fail to find anything I'd want to cancel by having another projectile interacting with the first.
The UAC can't normally shoot at two different targets anyway, neither can the rotary AC with all it's six shots...
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PlaywithLAMs
Capellan Confederation
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| Posted: 18-Mar-2010 20:03 Post subject: Re: House rule for double barreled ACs & Gauss rifles & MGs |
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| wrote: | | What torque are you trying to cancel by the way? |
I'm guessing that an AC, Gauss rifle, and MG uses the scientific principle of rifling their shots (torquing them) like personal rifles do with their shots to make them fly better. Having paired identical weapons to cancel each other's rifling torques of their shots makes their shots more likely to hit their targets. Read this about rifling:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifling
That article does mention small fins used by tank shells that simply ride grooves of the muzzle. I wonder if those are like so called Xshells that are basically shells with an X formation of fins connected radially to the shell that simply go along groove paths along the inside of the muzzle.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
Tai-i
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Location: Czech Republic
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| Posted: 18-Mar-2010 20:30 Post subject: Re: House rule for double barreled ACs & Gauss rifles & MGs |
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Have you actually read that article? The shots SHOULD rotate (and do so at contant rate) to remain flying stright. Could you somehow explain how the random interaction of two projectiles in-flight could possibly improve each other's accuracy?
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PlaywithLAMs
Capellan Confederation
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| Posted: 18-Mar-2010 20:34 Post subject: Re: House rule for double barreled ACs & Gauss rifles & MGs |
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| I did read that article. My idea for paired identical weapons to cancel each other's torques was so that when the shots were fired, all lateral recoiling and rifling torques that would happen would cancel each other out to provide more precise identical trajectories of those shots.
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Sleeping Dragon
Draconis Combine
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| Posted: 19-Mar-2010 01:11 Post subject: Re: House rule for double barreled ACs & Gauss rifles & MGs |
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recoiling backward wouldn't be changed at all, it would be increased IMO and the guns don't really shift in any other direction
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Rudel Gurken
Allisters Light Thunder
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Joined: 15-Jun-2005 00:00
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Location: Germany
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| Posted: 20-Mar-2010 03:45 Post subject: House rule for double barreled ACs & Gauss rifles & MGs |
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The Momentum of Torque of the barrel itself is that tiny, that a cancellation of that effect wouldn't improve targeting even by a measurable amount.
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Reality is where the Pizza-man comes from!'Gucken, petzen, verpissen!' (Look at it, squeal it, get the hell away from it!) – Motto of the recon troops'Artillery doesn´t know friend or foe! They only know worthwhile targets!‘ – Kuritan Infantrist
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EmeraldaWebb
ComStar
Private, First Class
Joined: 23-Mar-2010 19:44
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Location: United States
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| Posted: 23-Mar-2010 20:41 Post subject: Re: House rule for double barreled ACs & Gauss rifles & MGs |
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| wrote: | | The Momentum of Torque of the barrel itself is that tiny, that a cancellation of that effect wouldn't improve targeting even by a measurable amount. |
Agreed, this is one topic I think isn't necessary. It should be locked, not that I'm opposed to free speech but I just don't see where this topic is further going to accomplish anything. Besides CBT 'Mech ACs, Gauss Rifles, MGs, etc. probably use shots equipped with fins anyways to negate said torques.
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